1

2 Feel free to excuse Paladino and the people who nominated all ya want. I won't be a part of it. 

3

It's a disgrace...The NYS GOP are so screwed up you would think the Dems have put them in there...

The NYS GOP ran away from Steve Levy who is teh Suffolk County Executive (my county) and he was a Dem - he is a fiscal conervative who is really well known for messing - and winning - against the unions in Suffolk County. GOP fought hard to get rid of him and get Rick Lazio instead - who didn;t even campaign and is only know for getting trounced by Hillary a few years ago for the Senate. Palidino invited himself after the Lazio fuckup fro the GOP primaries and lost handily...Palidino always seemed a bit crazy - but it always seemed like he acted crazy to get ink and airtime - now he's just showing everyone that he is moonbat crazy and needs to be locked up, not elected... his poll numbers dropped 10+ points in one week after an outburst and bogus claims vs Cuomo and there is obviously a lot more to drop.

I still can't believe that there are no GOP with half a brain and desire that can get any elected position in NY...I'm not even sure if someone is running against Schumer...Jelly-brand has the American Idol judge's father running against her...

4 You're being way way way nicer than I was planning on being.  Like, I do not know enough profanity to express my position on this.

5

IVD, I realize that you're from the beltway and dishonest hackery is therefore your stock in trade, but really.  I'm sorry you can't see how you're trolling with this crap, and that the problem is that the GOP is so fucked up that a nutbar like Paladino can get nominated.  Cobbfan's summary is a good one, and if you were halfway honest, you could have just posted something along those lines.

The reason I just put up pictures in response to your garbage is that you're not even worth engaging.

6 Really?  You mean the GOP establishment in NY that handpicked Dede Scozzafava did so much better than the tea partiers did?  Because I'm not seeing it.

7 And yeah, Paladino is a fuckup, an epic one, but with the possible exception of Rudy, I've yet to see anything but fuckups from the NYGOP, so to trash a political movement that has only been around for a year and a half and shown significant and results in that time, I don't see where your denunciation is warranted.

8 Are Dan Maes and Christine O'Donnell also in the NYGOP? I mean, I was with the tea party on Joe Miller and whoever the hell is running against Bob Bennett, but to think that you can run not only hard core conservatism in blue states and win is nuts. 

If the tea party had been this organized in summer 2009, we never would have had a Gov. Chris Christie, because he was one of the eeeeeevil RINOs the tea party wails against. 

9 It's a new political movement...it's gonna make mistakes and we're gonna see a lot of unforced errors, the GOP leadership had a choice to either adapt and work alongside tea partiers or resist them...they mostly chose resistance, and the results have been a mixed bag, more outcomes good, some bad, as we can see.And considering what a fucking mess the GOP continues to be, I think the tea party will stick around until it becomes clear the GOP is going to get its shit together or it needs to be replaced.

10 I really don't see what's so ad about that speech? I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion, why is his anti-gay opinion so much worse than a pro-gay opinion? He said he doesn't want to teach our children that being gay is a successful option.. Oh well, I really don't think children need to be taught that gay is okay. We were taught, that everyone is equal, no matter what race they are. NOT what kind of sex they have.

I don't know enough about the guy, to make an opinion but to bash him for being honest in his opinion and stating it, is something that's refreshing. Even if I disagree with it. There was no spin, just an opinion and he was speaking to like minded folks. Oh well,.

We have to put up with grayson, they got to put up with him.

11 Yes, it's easy to lob shitballs at a whole bunch of good people when you smear with a broad fucking brush, IVD.

NY is fucked up to begin with, and now we in the hinterland are to be lumped in with the fuckwads on either coast?

We are fighting for you, like it or not.  Face the truth; the tea party is doing more to preserve and perhaps reclaim our nation from the fucking commies than the goddamned "Republicans" forwarded by either coast.  Are there Republicans on either coast?  Not a whole hell of a lot of them, so instead of pulling your own weight we in flyover country (clinging to our guns, bibles, antipathy, and whatever the fuck else) do the liftng for you.

And in the end, we expect not gratitude, as that would not fit the very definition of "ingrate".

You go right ahead and dislike the tea party... we are saving not just your ass, but that of your children.

12 One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl

13 So we should just shut up and vote for who our betters tell us to vote for and send in our money?
See, that's what started the whole thing.
You want perfection? Keep people from being involved.

In their defense, the NY GOP are a bunch of slimy corruptocrats, the only difference between them and the Dems is that the Albany Times Useless hates the (R) after their names. For many years the Senate was GOP and the Assembly was Dem, watching them sleazily negotiate the budget months late in the papers every year for decades was pretty entertaining. Expensive entertainment, but at least I got something back for all my money they took.

So anybody in NY who has held office is probably a slimy piece of garbage. Especially as you need the backing (read: you have to give them a big enough bribe) of the "leadership" to get anywhere.
As we saw with Dede, she didn't win any primaries but They Who Decide decided.
Sticking someone in there who's worse than Pataki just for the (R) isn't a good deal. Let NY have fun with another 6 years of Democrats ruling with an iron hand. That state is so screwed all they're doing now is mostly making the rubble bounce.

Ace has a post about some Rino guy and says, Don't even give me that RINO jibber-jabber. We've purged enough RINOs. Surge first, then purge later.
Now, I have no idea if the guy he's talking about is a Rino or not, I don't care, that's not the point.

The point is that it's not about "purging" the GOP it's about telling the GOP what I want and finding out if they want to earn my vote and/or my support.

In football my favorite team is the Giants, my second favorite team is Whoever's Playing Dallas (today was a good day in the Veeshir house).

In politics my second favorite party is whoever is running against the statist, I don't have a favorite party.

14

If the tea party had been this organized in summer 2009, we never would have had a Gov. Chris Christie, because he was one of the eeeeeevil RINOs the tea party wails against.

15 Like, I do not know enough profanity to express my position on this.

Email eddie, high might be able to offer some editorial support.

16 (1) Dave, I gotta say that IVD is right about Chris Christie being one of the evil RINOs.  So the pants-on-fire thing is uncalled for.

(2) I don't think NY-Gov was ever really in play, so this is much ado about nothing, unlike DE-Sen, which we might have taken.  I was in Rochester during the Lazio-Hillary business, and the Lazio campaign stunk on ice from where I sat.  I didn't expect much better this time.

(2a) - I will say this for Lazio and the NYGOP: Lazio is actually fairly conservative for a NYGOP statewide pick.

(3) I could be wrong about this, but I don't think it was obvious that Paladino was quite as nuts as he seems to be now, unlike CO'D, who you could spot a mile away as a complete train wreck.

(4) Yeah, the Tea Party is going to make mistakes.  The GOP makes mistakes.  But the O'Donnell situation really turned me (and a lot of other people) off when folks started saying they really accepted the idea that we would lose that race if CO'D won the primary and still went balls to the wall for her.

17

I'm sorry Joe, but I stand by my characterization.  I don't claim to be an expert on that race, but it looks to me like you had two good candidates in a hard-fought primary.  Upon defeat, Lonegan immediately threw his support behind Christie and Christie had Tea Party support (what there was at that time) going into the general election.  It's impossible to say what kind of a job Lonegan might have done, but one can imagine him doing a similar job to Christie.

So, at best, you have a mis-characterization, but given IVD's history, I think it's safe to call it an outright lie.

Also, on a side note, even though Joe is much more 'establishment' than I am, this is the way to debate the issue.  You can make your points without bitter trolling.

18 I was pretty neutral on the DE thing, but I'm of the opinion that if a RINO reaches Chafee level uselessness, I have no problem with that state's base tossing the RINO to fuck with the state GOP apparatus.  It lets them know that complacency is not optional.

19

OK, I want to say one last thing, then I'll leave this topic alone:

This is what happens when you set up a straw man for your own personal pet peeve and conflate two largely unrelated issues.

If IVD had just made the point that Paladino's statement regarding homosexuals was reprehensible, he would have had almost unanimous support (certainly including me).

If IVD had made the point that:  well, this is what can happen when you go into 'throw the bums out' mode, he would again have had large-scale agreement.  Then we could have debated whether that was worth it or not -- a legitimate debate to have.

But, by attempting to broadly tarnish the Tea Party through one man's opinion, he ended up creating a position that was unsupportable and turned a potentially worthwhile post into trash.  Now we're just having the same argument we've had a zilliion times before.

Sad, really.

20 I am going with IVD on this.

21

#20 I am going with IVD on this -

Actually, HD #19 gets my vote, and for the exact same reasons, and to the same conclusion. DP #18 deserves honourable mention for summarizing the cogent bits tho'.

But thread winner is douglas #15 "Email eddie, he might be able to offer some editorial support" ...because a) it's reasonably funny, b) it's screamingly true, and c) I'm sooo sick of this nonsense.

IVD: Bottom line is, if there were no Tea Party movement, inarguably the GOP  wouldn't be fricking close to an effin' win in 2010, period (let alone a wave) ...so if the TP faction blow a few while getting their ground game right, they don't even come close to the GOP's total screwups score. Give it a rest: we're your friend, my friend.

Like it or not.

22 I think you need to take a close look at the history of populist movements and their outcomes in this country before you start lavishing so much praise on the tea parties.  Federal Reserve,  and  direct election of Senators are two of them.  Beyond that though the Tea Parties have morphed from their original economic focus which I for the most part supported to supporting some real loons and that is going to cost us inthe long run.

23 Yes, we're just too dim, bless our little hearts, to be able to make decisions for ourselves, we need our betters to do it.

So just shut up, send in your money and vote for the (R) no matter how much of a shit sandwich.

Because we owe them, they're better and smarter than us.

24 Beyond that though the Tea Parties have morphed from their original economic focus which I for the most part supported to supporting some real loons and that is going to cost us in the long run.

^this.

One of the problems that I think we're running in to is that we end up with one establishment candidate (whoever's not scared by the Tea Party) and one Tea Party candidate (whoever can shout the loudest and has had more free time to show up at middle-of-the-day rallies - which doesn't necessarily speak well as to what they're doing IRL), and neither of them are being properly vetted before the primaries.  The GOP should have made a strong effort to vet every establishment candidate, early on, for both conservative credentials and to make sure that they had sparkly clean noses. The Tea Party should have done the same, but unfortunately it's not set up to do so, and if the GOP had done the sort of deep digging that should be required of every pre-primary candidate, they would have been accused of trying to run off the Tea Partiers. 

And to those of you who are perfectly hunky-dory with labeling homosexuality a dysfunction, fuck you with a chainsaw.  I think Paladino's trying to walk a very fine line with what he's doing, and he's not doing it well.  If he wants to say he doesn't support gay marriage, that's one thing, but saying being gay is an unsuccessful life choice is treading into dangerous territory.  I'm betting that the line that he omitted from his oral speech was something stuck in by a speechwriter and it doesn't fall into what he wants his public perception to be, but he needs to make a damn quick statement of that, and he needs to either chastise or fire the speechwriter if he wants anyone to think that he means it.

25 And Veeshir, you got what you wanted, the GOP establishment is turned on its ear, and you're still bellyaching about your betters choosing for you?  Whoever's doing the work gets to make the choices.  Quit whining like a welfare queen who doesn't get to buy soda with her food stamps.

26 No, I'm bitching about this post, IVD still hasn't figured the nation's mood out or he has and he doesn't like it.
You might have figured that out if you had read the post and my response.

I will say this post is very aptly categorized into GOP Fail.

27 I am going with IVD on this.

28 I read the post, I read your response, I read the article that was linked.  New York's running into the same problem that we're running into here in Colorado - the Tea Party didn't do jack to vet the candidates they promoted, and if the GOP had done it, it would have been viewed as a power move.  You're turning it into another chance to bitch about what the GOP has done, when they would have been condemned either way.

29 I get the nation's mood. Throw the bums out, all that.  Perfectly fine. I love the idea of new blood and strong primary challenges so that incumbents are either (1) thrown out for a better option or (2) scared into believing that they're not invincible. 

HOWEVER.....

I would prefer that candidates be vetted.  Would it be so much to find candidates who don't think homosexuality is a social disease or identity disorder? Or someone who's had a job in the past 10 years that didn't revolve around suing people? I really don't think that makes me an establishment RINO, but if it does, I'll gladly be one. 

30 ...and if the GOP had done it, it would have been viewed as a power move.

And if the GOP leadership hadn't done such a damned good and thorough job of destroying their own credibility on things like this, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

31 Another misunderstanding that I've tried to address over and over.
The Tea Party is neither, there's no tea and no party.
There are only tea partiers.


So getting mad at the Tea Party is to get mad at the people the establishment has pissed off and created.

The voters warned the GOP for 3 elections and they didn't listen.
They told us to shut up and boosted good and loyal Arlen over Toomey because Toomey was unelectable and people who thought differently were being unhelpful.

The reason there are tea partiers is because our political, social, moral and intellectual betters refused to listen to us because they were too busy calling us names and telling us to shut the fuck up.

And now that Teh Peepul are mad and doing something about it, they're calling us names and telling us to shut the fuck up.

The GOP "leadership" can see the writing on the wall and the mood of the people, they whine about it often enough, why didn't the NY GOP nominate a decent candidate, one that was going to make their voters happy?
That's not a rhetorical question but if the answer is something snotty, rude and insulting, save it.

Ditto Delaware.
Ditto Pennsylvania.
Ditto, well, you get the idea.
Or probably not.

32 For clarity, the last question should read,
Why didn't the GOP leadership nominate a candidate that would be acceptable to the voters instead of ending up with Paladino?

33 You can say "There is no Tea Party" all you want, it doesn't make it true.  Ask anyone who labels themselves a Tea Party Patriot.

And I'm not sure how a primary means that a candidate was forced on New York, could you explain?  It seems that anyone that was able to get enough signatures on a petition was able to appear on the primary ballot, which is how Paladino ended up in the primary.  Was there some sooper-sekrit circumvention of the primary that the rest of us aren't aware of?

34 Well, the GOP establishment pushed their candidate. why didn't they push one that would have been acceptable to tea partiers?

And you're claiming there is a Tea Party doesn't make it so. It looks as if you're pretty out of touch.
There is no platform, that would seem to be a requirement for an actual Party. If you ask people where the line of how much gov't we need is, you'll get approximately as many answers as people you ask.
They're just a bunch of pissed off people who are sick of being crapped on and called names by our elected officials.

Go to a Tea Party event, it's a pretty interesting crowd.

35 Are you saying that people who are members of the GOP shouldn't be allowed to campaign for their chosen candidates?  REALLY?!  They chose who they thought would best lead, they got voted down in the primary.  And, like most other primaries, there were multiple establishment candidates, and it got winnowed down by who was able to garner the most support.  You are, once again, failing to see that whoever does the most work is likely to determine the candidates.  You don't like it, get out there and do some fucking work, but don't expect people who actually do the work to choose who you want and not who they want.

Maybe the Tea Party isn't organized where you live, but here it's pretty damned organized.  And you're assuming I haven't been to a Tea Party event, which is flat-out wrong - I have photos dating back to the first Tea Party rally at the Capitol in Denver.  A LOT of the GOP regulars here are also Tea Party members, and a lot of the Tea Party members have ended up taking substantial positions in the GOP, starting at precinct committeeperson and working their way up in an amazingly short period of time.  Whoever is willing to do the work runs the show.

36 Nope, I'm saying quit getting all whiny when the voters won't support the elitists' choices when those choices are exactly what the voters have been saying they don't want, you know, like Mike Castle.

The Tea Party near you is organized?
Does it have anything to do with the Tea Parties in other states?

So you're saying there are Tea Parties not a Tea Party.
Well, that's another kettle of fish, now isn't it?

37 Of course, because none of them have anything to do with the national organization that's been sending buses around, or organizing marches on Washington.  Not nationally organized at all.

38

Uh, Alice? - Don't I distinctly remember you telling us to get off our butts a year (or 2???) ago (during the course of a similar argument, about McCain I think ...sorry, I've never been able to make the search thingy work, so I'm going by memory here) and take over the effing GOP if we were serious about making changes?

We did. And we are.

Quit whining.

Populism happens in the US on occasion. Most newbies make mistakes. Deal with it.

 

39 Buses in DC? I've been to the DC ones, they're full of people who drove there or who took the metro on their lunch hour. I'm sure some buses went, but that's not what made them so big.

The first DC tea party event was a rainy, lunchtime, workday affair, the crowd was small, maybe a thousand or two, but it kept turning over. There was a steady stream of people from the metro as they went on their lunch break so it wasn't the same thousand or two.

The second one was all families. All families. Everywhere I looked I could see husband, wife and kids. Occasionally you'd see two or three families together, next to their campers.
Except for the signs, it looked more like Disney World than a protest.

Buses.
That's laughable.

40 I'm not whining about the Tea Party taking over the GOP, I'm whining that Veeshir is still whining about his betters choosing candidates.

These buses.

41

...heh: I see the Head Ewoky has came down on ...the side of fact. Paladino.Didn't.Say.That. after all.

...which makes that first "comment" positively prophetic, eh? Kudos, HD.

IVD? Thoughts? Position change? Apology?

42 Well, isn't that something, dude never said it.

43 Ouch.

Now about this dislike for the tea party thing....

44

Whoops, guess attempting to frame the debate dishonestly didn't work out so well after all.

45 I really like these posts. This site has some of the people whose opinions I value a lot. The mothership does too. Hostages, ditto, IB, same thing. And there's fighting, fighting like dogs, over the Tea Party vs GOP.

And Kos and Company says we walk in lockstep? The only conformists I see are in his little echo chamber.

Keep it up, folks! Prove em all wrong! (Tea party rocks, too. Even with O'Donnell). Looking forward to the Big Red Bitch, come Nov 2.

46 Well, isn't that something, dude never said it.

You fucked up.  You trusted us.

47 sockpuppet FAIL.  I SWEAR I changed my name to The MFM before posting that!

48 Well, isn't that something, dude never said it.

Dude, we covered that hours ago.  Politicians are so predictable.

I'm betting that the line that he omitted from his oral speech was something stuck in by a speechwriter and it doesn't fall into what he wants his public perception to be, but he needs to make a damn quick statement of that, and he needs to either chastise or fire the speechwriter if he wants anyone to think that he means it.

49 No Alice, I was whining about IVD either still not getting it or not liking it.

There's a difference you know.

And I didn't dispute that they sent buses, you might have figured that out if you had read where I wrote, "I'm sure some buses went, but that's not what made them so big."

How many tea parties around the country really care what some "Tea party Express" is doing?
You see, the tea party events in DC have not had a majority, nor even a sizable minortity, bused in.



If you're going to give me a hard time, you really have to do better than the series of things you've gone after me for that I didn't write.

50 I guess these tens of thousands of people didn't give a crap about what Tea Party Express is doing.  Isn't DC your neck of the woods? 

The buses I'm referring to aren't busing people in to the protests.  Go read about what I'm talking about, you're obviously confused.  A 34-city, 7,000-mile bus tour doesn't really sound like a local unorganized thing, does it?

51

Jeeeeeeebus.

Yes there were tens of thousands of people, no, they were not bused there by some tea party express.

Yes, the Tea Party Express is organized.

So fucking what?

I, and many thousands of others had been to at least two tea party events before we fucking heard of some Tea Party Express.

Are you seriously that offended by people trying to speak up that you have to invent some sort of overlord for the movement?

52 No, what I'm saying is that it's getting organized.  Organization doesn't have to happen from the top down.  

53 Hell no, I won't apologize. He's still a fucked up candidate, just like Dan Maes and Christine O'Donnell. 

54

Oh, so in the future it will be organized?

I don't know about that.

What will happen, as I've said before, is that people will try to glom on but they will be Tea Party Leaders just as much as I.

i.e. not at all.

Apparently there is a ready supply of tools who will happily pretend that they're the Tea Party leaders, the crazier the better I figure.

Organizing tea partiers will be about as easy as organizing DPUD.

Heck, we can't even agree on slow zombies/fast zombies.

 

55 It's more organized than I think you realize.  And you fucking know better, slow zombies!

56

Oh, I know that fast zombies are only in the movies, but I think that some here don't agree.

57

Zombies are only in movies?

58

Hell no, I won't apologize. He's still a fucked up candidate, just like Dan Maes and Christine O'Donnell.

Whoosh.

59

Fast zombies are only in movies, davis.

We all know the real zombies are slow.  

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