1 Our constitution and declaration of Independence both mention a creator. I am heartedly sick and tired of the wining of the liberal majority, the elitist attitude that you must be mentally ill to believe in God - some of the finest and greatest men of history believed in a Deity of one kind or another - including Socrates and Plato. As for reactionary, there is nothing wrong, people, with holding on to the past. The very fact that I have a computer, IPod and love & study science while still believing in a deity proves that an intelligent person can both hold on the past while walking, head held high, into the future. I find it amusing how many liberal opened minded people are actually very prejudiced against me and my world-view! I would say you must STAND somewhere - some kind of bedrock, whether it be religion and belief in a creator or a solid and healthy, life-affirming philosophy. All this said, I think that Texas is right - its time to have states that welcome religion and particularly Christians & states that don't and I would choose to live in such a state. I will leave to the atheists NY, CA and WA - and move where being a Christian isn't a ... sin !

2

While I do agree with your post, and respect your cautionary stance with regard to motives, I do believe that a great many people across our nation, do want to preserve and cling to our heritage as "Under God", both nationally and personally.

And, a poke in the eye of the ACLU, works for me too!

Great site!

3 No doubt, I think its fair game, if that's what the people want, and it represents them, they should have it.  I just get a bit nervous given the political climate that its less about it representing the people of Texas and more about throwing the finger to secularists, its hard to tell somedays.

4

"Our constitution and declaration of Independence both mention a creator."

Oh REALLLLLLY. Please reference the numerous mentions of a creator in the Constitution. Heck, reference one. The Declaration does, in fact, reference a Creator (who endowed the created with certain inalienable rights); however, the Declaration is not a governing document, it is in effect a declaration of war. Madison's writings with regards to the First Amendment make it clear that the US was not to have any kind of official religion -- not even a kind of broad ecumenical Chrisitianity. But, hey, he only wrote that amendment, what the hell could he have possibly known about it.

'Under God,' as a kind of ceremonial deism (and the SC has referenced that a dozen times), is very borderline as it is (but on the legal side of the border, so far as SC decisions go). However in terms of traditions, since 1954 ain't that long standing. The pledge existed longer without 'under God' than with. I personally find it annoying. Iran is a nation 'under God.' We are not. We are a nation under the Constitution. And, despite your claim to the contrary, God ain't in the Constitution. That's by design. The government has no place in the relationship of God to the People. Think about it, do you really want beaurocrats sticking their collective nose in your relationship with the Almighty? I do not.

I think people of faith should really think twice, three times, and more times again before associating the Divine with the definitely satanic influence that is politics. It has never elevated politics -- it has only ever made religion venal, tyrannic, and evil. Always.

BTW, I'm not a fan of the ACLU, not an atheist, and not a lefty.

5 I think there's a strong argument there too, Atomic.  Again, I'm not real sure where I fall ultimately, s'why I sent it to HotAir actually.

6 This is TEXAS, God's country, and if you don't like saying the pledge with GOD in it, you are free to move to California or NY where God is hidden and can't come out in public

7 well i dont know about numerous mentions of a creator, however do we really want to seperate the DI from the constitution? maybe we should look at the bill o rights seperately too? one might note that the DI came BEFORE the constitution in a first things first kinda of way....

8 *sigh*  Its not that, Minority.  And believe me, the last thing I want to do is live in a lefty hellhole like NY NJ MA or CA.  We've got too many of those douchebags moving here to escape high taxes and then voting to up our taxes in PA.  I'm just not sure on it.  I thought it was an interesting philosophical question is all.

9

Very strong argument, Atomic.  You touch on several concerns that I wrestle with.  The drafters of our governing documents, very deliberately did not sanction a specific religion, but left freedom wide open for the individual pursuit of the Creator.  Yet, revealed throughout our history, our government buildings, various other documents, speeches and letters, we see a very prominent reliance on the Creator, and specifically the Creator of the Bible.

Many believe that the structure of our government is based on Biblical governance & democracy among the people, and attest it to the unparralled success of our baby country.  It is also widely believed that Christianity was prevelant, not only among the governing forefathers, but the citizenry as well.

Never before in America, until these progessive/multi-cultural/politically correct times, have Christians been made to feel so unwelcome.  And at this very point in time, open arms are shown (by the government) to accomodate every other religion and holiday, except Christianity.  This is the brewing problem, and I fear that it will bring about many knee-jerk reactions.

I hope this discussion catches on for awhile.  I would like to hear more of what people think about this subject, and the whole "Faith Challanged" environment we seem to be in.

Going to go see if Hot Air is picking this up.

 

 

10 Its on HotAir Headlines.  I dunno if it'll make the Blog.  I'd like to see where it goes.  I'm conflicted on the issue, which is why I sent it.  I see both sides of the argument, I really do, I'm just not sure where I fall.

11

We've got too many of those douchebags moving here to escape high taxes and then voting to up our taxes in PA.

That's teh funny right there.  I left PA (phila) precisly because of the constant tax increases.  While I'll never live there again, I'm stuck with my teams: Flyers, Phillies, and Eagles.  Thank God for cable packages.

Anyway, property taxes in PA were $5600.  In SC they are $1100.  Same house value.  And the people are much nicer and usually vote the right way.  Well, er, Graham cast a spell and fooled us all. 

12 Heh.  Hopefully we'll see Grahamnesty lose his seat to a decent conservative.

13

Yet, revealed throughout our history, our government buildings, various other documents, speeches and letters, we see a very prominent reliance on the Creator, and specifically the Creator of the Bible.

This goes to the heart of the question -- what do people mean when they say 'America has always been a Christian nation?' If they mean 'most Americans have always been Christian' then that is an unassailable fact. But if they mean that the governance and official faith has been exclusively Christian, then I would argue that they are wrong. Certainly there is and has always been a Christian influence in how the country has been run. People who are informed by their faith will take action in accord with that faith -- this is true of anyone of any religion. So obviously in a country where a particular religion is numerically dominent, that religion will have a certain degree of influence even without a legal presence. The ACLU and the left in general tends to think that France is great, and their views on secularism are very much in keeping with the French practice of secularism. The French model is that secularism is the established religion, and no other religions may compete with it in any way. Government officials cannot express religious views, wearing a cross or viel is banned in schools, etc. This is quite distinct from traditional American secularism. And there is such a thing.

Many believe that the structure of our government is based on Biblical governance & democracy among the people...

I am unaware of any Biblical support for the notion of Seperation of Powers. I am also unaware of any kind of Biblical support for any kind of representative democratic process. Most times when 'the people' are mentioned, they are 'wicked' or 'decieved. Not a trustworthy repository for the machinery of government. The Old Testament is very much more of a support for 'the divine right of kings' style government. The New Testament is fairly apolitical, and the main thrust seems to me to be about the next world and not so much this one in any case. The Constitution was almost exclusively derived from Enlightenment era political theory, without any direct biblical theory that I have ever noticed. Common law, while having gradually accumulated a large degree of Christian-influenced and Roman legal system-influenced judgements, was in large part derived from Anglo-Saxon pagan law and practice.

There also seems to be a huge amount of cherry-picking when it comes to the application of Biblical laws. Dietary laws are abrogated, while the few sections dealing with male homosexuality (and I believe it was only male homosexuality that was prohibited -- though I could be wrong) are retained. However, selling one's daughter to her rapist and the other laws regarding how a rape is determined to have occured seem completely absurd. Laws against murder, rape, theft, and whatnot else don't neccessarily have to come from the Bible to have been passed. Ancient nations that hadn't heard of the Bible had such laws.

Never before in America, until these progessive/multi-cultural/politically correct times, have Christians been made to feel so unwelcome.

That depends. The Danbury Baptists were quite happy to hear that their persecution would end under the new Constitution. Non-Catholics faced some degree of discrimination in Maryland, while Catholics faced discrimination in other States. Even after the First Amendment was ratified, the Douay Bible was not used in schools in New York -- and the SC found that it was constitutional for them to compel Catholic students to use the King James Bible.

This is the brewing problem, and I fear that it will bring about many knee-jerk reactions.

This is very much a two way street, though. Those who prefer to keep religion out of politics and politics out of religion are troubled by the Moral Majority and other Christian political organizations. Some of the statements that have been made seem to advocate a Christian theocratic government, or at least a much more Christian-centric government than we have ever had to this time. Both sides like to play the victim, and both sides can point to examples to justify their status as victims. Both sides can be far too extreme.

My own feeling is that government has no business in religion, and religion has no business in government. The people, however, are free to involve themselves to whatever degree they wish in both. The people can, will, and have informed the government through their participation in the process with the ethical and moral views they have gained through their religious expression -- without any formal legal presence of religion in politics or vice versa. This is how it should be. We are not France, nor should we try to be.

14 It has a lot to so with intent.  Much of the secular militants don't really concern themselves with seperation of church and state, they wanna whack at those weirdo Christians.  On the flipside, some of the Moral Majority types want stronger ties to gov't that they really shouldn't be getting in on.  So again, I'm conflicted, and I don't think that'll change. 

15

Some secular militants want to ban all public displays of religion (or at least the more traditional ones -- eastern, new-age, and enviro-lunatism are apparently exempt). That's what I mean by the French model. This is inappropriate for the US, because it interferes with the people's right to freely express their faith. But then these same people don't have a problem with Islamic indoctrination in grade school. The hypocricy in that is nauseating.

16 No doubt.

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