1

just let me know when it's time for the pitchforks and torches

 

maybe I should start stocking up on them now...

2

well, expect the RINOs to try to undermine Tea Party endorsed candidates at every turn, only to then tell us to get out of the way.

 

And I say this as someone who used to take the approach that an electable centrist would be better than a no hope guy. Well, I still do, incertain circumstances, but it seems as though every time we try to support a centrist, they go out of their way to stab us in the back. See: Snowe, Olympia.

3 The GOP could fuck up a wet dream.

4

I saw the funniest post at Ace's about how we need to work on getting conservatives elected.

What I need to know is, is it still my fault McCain lost?

5

So far this year, I've sent [my typical small amounts of] money to the SarahPAC on a half dozen occasions. The "occasion" was when the RNC called me asking for donations ...right after I hung up the phone ...right after I told them to fuck off (well, "told" as in with "a loud, harsh, angry, screaming voice").

I donated to Hoffman's campaign after The Other McCain brought the race to my attention last week sometime.

And it's fucking McCain's fault that McCain lost to our current little fucking hoser bastard incompetent office-holder.

6

I agree, but I wasn't asking you davis,br, I was asking all the people who blamed it on me last year.

The ones who seem to think it's my job to vote for Republicans instead of Republicans job to convince me to vote for them.

7

Oh yeah. I recall the threads, veesh.

But I had a reprise of this set-to over at Riehl World last week in a couple of threads (and I agree with like 99.9% of what Dan usually posts), in regards to Hoffman being a member of the Conservative Party. Fuck that: he's a small "c" conservative. So my hostility is still in hyper-ventilation mode on the subject matter.

I'm just sick of this shit: the fucking country is going to hell-in-a-handbasket while ALL of these fucking beltway bastards have their fucking hands in their pants playing pocket polo, and the only fucking thing they actually care about is looting the public coffers. Rome's burning, and we have have nothing but tone-deaf inbred megalomaniac little Caesars who think they're all fucking Itzhak Perlman.

8

I grew up in NY, the Conservative Party pretty much always ran the same candidate as the GOP, just like the Liberal Party ran the Dem.

I usually voted "Conservative" instead of "GOP" when that happened.  

It's funny how they were all happy to have the Conservative party when they were just rubber-stamping but when they stick to their principles, they're scum.

9 At this point it's painfully clear that we need to elect principled candidates that exist outside of the DC bubble.  Far better for the House to remain in the hands of the Democrats (albeit with much tighter margins) than for the Repubs to ride back into power on the backs of RINOs that will quite simply not be vertebrate enough to resist the temptation to roll over and allow the Democrats to further their Socialist agenda at the Rs expense.

10

If I blamed you in the past, I now un-blame you. I don't recall either way. But this time around, we do have an opportunity to make some gains, and just seeing how the RNC and GOP leaders have fucked Hoffman over on this one convinved me that telling the establishment to stick it, especially in this case, is not a bad idea.

11

I was more talking about Ace, his post pissed me off, and then the comments get downright lame. He's talking about banning people  for being insulting. 

I thought that was the whole point of his blog.  

I don't know who here was on the "If you don't suck McCain's dick you're electing Obama" bandwagon and I don't care.

I just felt like saying, "Fuck you" to them, they know who they are.

12

I think even Ace has come around on this too tho' Veesh'. As evidence he's got something up this morning asking about how many conservatives would it take, to take over local party machines. The implication is him being as fed up now, as you were then ...as in "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" ...and this shit about accepting the "electability" of RINOs just ain't gonna fly in fly-over country twice.

My take is that I want every fucking beltway rat-bastard with an incumbent beside their name to lose their job now. And then I want all their little post-job benefits taken away (access to better retirement, better medical care, better-whatever-in-hell).

And then I want to tax every fucking stolen dime away from every one of the greedy little pieces of scum who've shown more than, say, a 5% (or whatever the adjusted inflation level was, plus 2%) increase in net worth during their tenure. Let them all get a taste of what it's like amongst the hoi-poloi.

I want to punish them. I think they've all went well beyond greed and collusion into de facto criminality ...and I want to change the laws as necessary to penalize the rat-bastards.

I. Ain't. Happy.

Fire.Them.All.

 

13 I think even Ace has come around on this too

I don't know about that.  He stated that he would support Huckabee if he were the nominee.  Disclaimer - Huckabee actually freaking scares me so I'm not the most objective on this.  Of course, a valid argument can be made that Huckabee would still be way better than Obama, though I'm not too convinced.  Huckabee seems way way way way too comfortable with using government power to tell people how to live. 

Having said that, I wouldn't heave Ace out of the conservative movement for holding his nose and supporting Huckabee.  Neither would I accuse someone (like idk me) who would never vote for Huckabee from ohnoes helping to elect Obama. 

14 Is a small gummint, low tax, robust foreign policy, personal responsibility, and individual rights conservative still a conservative if he or she doesn't necessarily tow the line on drug legalization, gay marriage, and abortion?  What policy positions should define a conservative?

15

Dittos on distaste with Huckabee (I'm not afraid of 'im per se, tho' I can see why you might be ...and anyways, hell I'm way more fundamentalist than he is: the difference being I'm not a greedy pandering hypocritical idiot ...and I live in the real world and not in the pseudo reality of the beltway zombies).

...the following is edited from a comment I made earlier this morning at Riehl World.

I voted for a McCain in the last election (and since the Teh Fred had already withdrawn by the date of the CA primaries, I ended up fricking voting for stinking *Romney* to try and stop a McCain nomination) ...I originally determined I would just withhold my vote in the general for the top-of-the-ticket (after Hilary lost to O': and hell yes, I would've voted for her over McCain ...but the alreday obvious deification of O' was simply beyond the pale), but I was delighted enough with McCain's choice of Sarah Palin that - even with the subsequent campaign errors - I voted the ticket (hoping it was evidence that he'd bought a clue somewhere).

But I will NOT vote for a McCain again. Period. Ditto a Romney. Ditto a Huckabee. Ditto any RINO sob the national party tries to foist upon me. I am NOT swayed by the half-a-loaf arguments from those who seem to be unable or unwilling to see that the problem is the LACK of the GOP supporting conservatives with actual conservative principles on the ticket. And the arguments of those arguing for RINOs and their ilk is just so much whizzing into the wind.

I will re-register Independent. If the country is determined to go to straight to hell in the fastest way possible, I'm not going to aid it getting there.

16

Keep the gov't doing what it should and not what it shouldn't.

I'm against the gov't being charge of who gets to marry whom, I think that prohibition creates worse problems than legalization and I'm for legalized abortion early in a pregnancy, so I'm more libertarian, but I'll just take conservatives who don't use the federal gov't to push their beliefs on me. (cough terry schiavo cough)

I think even Ace has come around on this too.

That's what set me off.

He's changed his position in a year without acknowledging it.

So have a bunch of other people.

Sure I'm being an asshole but it pisses me off that now they're saying "don't vote for Rinos" and yet last year, when I wasn't sufficiently enthused at the nomiation of King Rino, I was attacked.  

17

  Ace can certainly speak for himself and doesn't need me to defend him, but I don't see the comparison between the NY23 race and last year's presidential election.

  This election is a PRIMARY election, and you've got a conservative right there on the ticket to vote for.  You can vote FOR the conservative and AGAINST the "rino" all at the same time.

  The 2008 presidential election gave us a choice between a "rino" who would have been good on a few issues (earmarks & defense) versus The One.  McCain would have been working against us on many issues, but we would have had a much better chance of getting him to move our way than we will EVER have to get Obama to as much as give us the time of day.

  If you go back to the primaries, Ace was NOT a McCain guy.  None of Ace's co-bloggers were McCain people.  The group also found Huck to be a charlatan, but there was some sympathy for Romney, mostly because of the Northeastern wisdom that "He was a governor of a DEEP blue state, did you expect him to have a record like Goldwater?"  Ace was DEFINITELY not a "rino" lover during the 08 primaries.

18 All you're showing the GOP by walking away is that conservatives walk away, RINOs stick around.  If you really want the GOP to nominate and support conservative candidates, be active in the GOP - saying you're voting conservative or not at all isn't enough to get your candidate nominated and elected.  Blaming the GOP for its candidates when you've walked away from the party and registered as independent is ridiculous.  It's like expecting your ex-girlfriend to give a shit what you think about her current boyfriend.

19

The GOP needs to make me want to vote for them.

Fuck politicians, if they want conservatives to vote for them they need to do more than stick a fucking (R) after their name.

They lost the 2006 and 2008 elections because they were too leftist and acting all better than us. That's their fault.

Denny Fucking Hastert protecting Cold Cash Jefferson was a prime example.

And Russ, it's not a primary. our political betters in the NY GOP decided they wanted to Rino to be on the ticket so they didn't have a primary. 

The pesky fucking voters keep not doing what their political betters with the (R)s after their names tell them to.

Here's one post that I could find from July.

But I really hope we don't lose sight of the fact that we're in a bad position -- worse than we anticipated, I think it's fair to say -- and that winning is indeed preferable to "losing with principle and ideological integrity."

And yet today, it's better to lose an election than our ideological purity.

That's what I'm talking about.

I'm in favor of not election Rinos, I've always been in favor of not electing Rinos.

When I change my position, you'll know that.

 

20

^Uh, I don't think so. Would to gawd it was that simple, tho'. For one, if it was true, the RNC would be hearting the Tea Parties. See much of that from the national party?

Case in point: NY23.

We small "c" conservatives flooded the zone with money after the Palin announcement. She appeared before bigger crowds than McCain. She brought home the bacon. She kept the result from being the debacle it was headed for ...and if the McCain campaign had bought a clue, they would have won. Regardless. We small "c's" played nice.

Did the RNC support her rising star?

Got Specter, much?

...or is the fact we've all got screwed by 'em?

I guess I just don't like playing the battered wife very well.

...and I've been having this argument ...and hearing this same rather simplistic rationale  - on AOSHQ, actually - since '05/'06 or so: I started arguing for recognition of a Whig Moment in the Party about then, Alice. Because it's obvious - well, to some - the national party is ignoring the base's calls.

And. I wouldn't be leaving the GOP ...I'd just be recognizing the GOP has left me.

21 This 'us versus them' mentality is exactly what keeps RINOs in power.  Quit blaming the GOP for the candidates they produce if you're not willing to actively campaign with time and money and knocking on doors early on for a candidate you support, and if that candidate doesn't win the nomination, backing the winning candidate, again, with time and money and knocking on doors.  Don't expect the full force of the GOP to get behind the candidate you like if he wins if you're not willing to get behind the candidate you don't like if he wins.  If enough conservatives are working for GOP success, conservatism will prevail - if the only people who are bothering to show up and do the work are RINOs, then RINOs are what we get.

The bottom line is, the candidates are decided by the people who bother to get up off their asses and work and actually show up and vote - it's not a matter of the GOP wanting to be a party of RINOs, it's a matter of the RINOs being the people who have stuck around and done the work.  You want the GOP to change, you don't sit around and boohoo that your candidate isn't someone you like, you think back to six months before and realize that you could have been donating your time and your money until it hurt to the candidate that you supported and maybe they would have stood a chance.  And you look back and realize that considering that you couldn't even be bothered to vote in the last presidential election, why the fuck should the GOP care about what you think?  And then you don't make the same mistake again.

22 Crap. Veeshir beat me to a post. That "^" was in response to Alice. I wasn't "I don't think so" to what Veesh' has been saying (probably as long as, if not longer, than I have).

23

Bullshit. You paint with too fricking simplistic and broad a brush.

24

Specter is a great example.

They told conservatives to go screw and he fucked the GOP first chance he got.

And yet, they're still telling conservatives to go screw (as we can see in NY 23 where they decided they didn't need a primary to see who the voters want).

Fuck them.

I voted for Palin and the old guy who sponsored the "Shut up, you" bill because I knew Obama was a disaster of epic proportions, but I didn't try to get anybody else to do so.

I felt dirty enough as it was.

If it's Romney or Huckabee in 2012, I'm done with (R)s, I'm writing in Gus Hall until I can find a conservative to vote for.

25

Alice H, the Rino in NY wasn't "nominated" because of anything except that her husband is buddies with our betters in the GOP leadership.

They keep acting as if we need to stfu, send in our money and vote for them.

26 It is simple, though.  It's a matter of each and every conservative who's dissatisfied with the direction the party is going in, actually doing something about it instead of sitting around and whining.  You're acting like the GOP is some impenetrable monolith, and it's not.  It's very simple to show up, do the work, and be a part of county leadership in a matter of a couple of years, maybe less depending on what's currently happening in your county.  But you're not going to be able to jump in and say "I want this Senator gone because I think he's a RINO!" if you haven't bothered to get involved previously.  And it's even more ridiculous to threaten to leave the party or threaten to sit out from voting and expect the party to listen to a damn thing you say. 

Anyone who sits around and complains that the GOP is handing them lousy candidates, who doesn't bother to make sure that non-lousy candidates are viable, gets no sympathy for me when they complain that the GOP has gone soft.

27 They keep acting as if we need to stfu, send in our money and vote for them.

There's that "they" again - what exactly are you doing to make sure that you're a part of the "they" and therefore a part of the decision-making process?

28

I get it, it's my fault.

It's always my fault.

You know those Tea Parties the GOP are fucking ignoring?

Yeah, that's why I've done.

When the people who make this country work go to huge protests and the GOP ignores them, well, fuck them.

29

4th sentence could be either "That's what I've done" or "That's why I'm done".

either way works.

30 What probably will happen if Hoffman doesn't win is that the RINOs and RNC will believe they have to "punish" the Tea Partiers by excluding them even more than they already have been. That is why this election is so important: if the Tea Party can win one, they can send a message to everybody that they are serious, and that the RINOs don't wield the power in the party

31

And that's funny eddiebear.

If that happens, and they feel they have to "punish" me, well, I'm not the one who needs to have me vote for me.

If none of you vote for me I'm fine with that.

When nobody votes for Rinos they'll have to go out and get a fucking job.

32

Oh, I realize nobody reads this blog, but......

Do you mean work this these people Alice H.?

33 The GOP isn't ignoring the Tea Parties.  I can't go into more detail here.

34

So let me get this straight Alice?

I've been politically active since, oh, 1968 or so ...I was actually one of the - very minor - reasons that 18 year olds got the franchise about that period (I'm also still proud that in 1964 I was at least nominated to be Congressional page  - well before it was considered sexually unwise - even without family connections, just based upon my middle-school academic performance and focus, and due to an impressed teacher who was a friend of the district Congressman: no, I backed out as Vietnam heated up).

I walked the precincts - as a registered Democrat - in two elections in the 1970's. Admittedly, due to the demands of life and marriage and school and work, I kind of dropped out of that kind of active participation in the '80's. And also dropped the "D" - and my membership in the Useful Idiots corp - in the '80's, after Carter's debacle opened my eyes to adult realties and my own arrogant stupidity. Enough to positively revere Major North in the Iran-Contra hearing by mid-decade.

But I've never stopped talking and convincing people in some 40 fucking years of being politically active (and while never running for office, though the Dem's at least, did try and talk me into it in the late 70's: but my I'm-not-proud-of-it-active-anti-Vietnam past left me with "issues" which I thought even at that point made me thoroughly ineligible for even county effin' dog catcher), and you want to school me in what the logic of what a party member should do?

Sweet.

OTOH, I'm telling you that the RNC is blowing smoke up our asses, taking our fucking money without delivering the goods, and driving us over a fucking cliff because their focus is on their own greed and self-enrichment and the good of the nation be damned, having heeded not a damn the lessons that Reagan so richly provided the party.

So I just don't think you can deliver on that debate, hon', by throwing up straw-man arguments about it being the fault of the base. See Tea Party, et al.

35

Remember  the last time the GOP acted conservative?

1994 baby. 199fucking4 and the Contract with America, once they started ignoring that they started losing.

If reality doesn't show these douchetools the answer, what is one foul-mouthed, angry semi-blogger going to do?

Besides, I live in the bluest of blue regions, they don't even bother running anybody against Jim Moran. You get that? The GOP doesn't run anybody against Jim Fucking Moran.

What good is me doing anything in my district?

Maybe I'll try to run next year. The worst I can do is get fewer votes than Meryl Yourish (I write her in, why not? I'm not voting Moran).

36 I'm saying the base needs to become the party leadership.  And frankly, telling me you did a bunch of campaigning for the Democrats doesn't do much to convince me that you've done much campaigning for the GOP.

37

Bwahaahaha.

You know the GOP is not ignoring the tea parties?

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm. I'm gonna have to see something to back that up.

Something concrete. Something like, oh, say not nominating Rinos over conservatives.

Hell, they're probably trying to get Arlen Specter to defect back so they can back him over Toomey.

38 If you're going to try to get any party support for running next year, don't show up next year and announce you're the GOP candidate, Veeshir.  Start showing up now and working toward getting the support, or else you'll look like a Paultard.

39

Sigh. Just ...sigh.

Maybe if I'd more plainly said: don't try to teach your Gramma to suck eggs?

 

40 OK, gramma, keep sucking eggs.  In the meantime, people who refuse to see us get in another position where our choices are Huckabee and McCain will get to work.

41

Ummm, I assumed you would figure out that I didn't mean I would show up in October and ask them to put me  on the ballot.

I figured you were smart enough to figure that out.

I am really looking forward to you explaining how the GOP is not ignoring the tea parties.

42 check your email, Veeshir

43

Whoosh.

Maybe you should google that phrase. And self-reflect on what "points" I was actually making?

Regardless.

Prediction: if my reading of historic trends and current party politics is correct, and the RNC continues to reimage itself as the party of Dem-Lite, a third party will rise from its ashes, just as the GOP rose from the ashes of the equally irrelevant Whig party in the election of 1854 due to its intransigence in ignoring the base.

...and the nation will continue to suffer to that point at the hands of self-serving elitists (of both parties), more interested in self-enrichment, than national preservation.

44 When I said "punish", I meant exclude even further from the GOP table.

45 I knew exactly what you were trying to say.  I don't buy it.

46

Good. Thanks. (I think you were responding to me?)

Then we can agree to thoroughly disagree.

...and I'm good with that, so long as it's a rational disagreement.

To sum up: I see the base being ignored due to top-down (and erroneous reading-of-the-tea-leaves) party policy, you see the base being negligent and  retroactively complacent and unwilling to work for change.

Done.

47

Sorry. "fairwhether" is me, of course: I dunno why in XP and ONLY on this workstation, my name reverts to "fairwhether" (which is my - inactive, save for blogroll -  blogname).

48 No I wasn't responding to you!

Oh, wait, yes I was, I just got used to disagreeing with everything that comes out of your mouth

49

Heh.

 

 

50 Alice, toss us a bone here. Show us one example where the GOP hasn't stuck its finger in the eye of the tea-party folks?

NY23 has been GOP for a long time, and is reliably so. They don't need to tack left to keep the seat. So why do they? Sure, Scuzzyfava was a payoff nomination. And if the local GOP is going to ignore what the base wants, and engage in that kind of payoff, why should the base support them?

51 Check yer email, brad.

52 Alice, my local GOP wasn't even interested in my volunteer time unless I gave them money. No way.

53 I checked my email and it didn't convince me.
NY 23 is a much better argument than "They're listening".

They're not listening, they think I'm being unhelpful. You can see it in every interview.
You can see it in the endorsements for NY 23.

Teh Fred is figuring it out, maybe we'll see the dream conservative ticket 2012, Teh Fred/Sarahcuda.
Not just real conservatives, but imagine the rallies with Sarahcuda and Mrs. Teh Fred.
Compare to the First Worf/Granny McBotox. 

OT I'm home and watching Cash Cab, it never fails to make me laugh watching smug, oh-so-intelligent NYC leftist douches get basic history wrong. "Who gave Savannah to Lincoln as a present?" and the idiots answered "Stonewall Jackson" after their "phone shout out" told them that.
Heh. That was right before Grant surrendered to Lincoln at Chappaquidic.

54

Mrs Fred and Palin together?

 

BUNK!

55 That was right before Grant surrendered to Lincoln at Chappaquidic.

I, don't remember that happening, but it could have, I was errah, fucking hammered at the time.

56

^53 That was right before Grant surrendered to Lincoln at Chappaquidic

Now that right there is pretty damn funny: bear suit!!!

57 Sarah/Jeri 2012.  Pure win.

58

>>my local GOP wasn't even interested in my volunteer time unless I gave them money.

They're not fucking interested when you DO give them money. Money should be like the carrot on the stick, shouldn't it? But no: they're stuck in a smug "where you gonna go" meme (which pretty much puts paid to Alice's  Axiom)?

Where? - Well, away from you Mr. Rat-Bastard Beltway Bob.

See? - Sometimes, darling, you have to quit putting up with the abuse, and just let your feet do the, er, voting.

...I'm really "into" rat-bastards as a phrase today. Sorry.

59 And NY23 really is a case of the GOP being stupid. They had a great chance to show that a conservative could win, and instead, they want to prove that Dem-Lite loses.

Ace is right to make the distinction that this is a race that we can afford to lose, versus the 08 presidential race.

If Hoffman wins, it shows that conservatives can win. If the Dem wins, it isn't the end of the world. But it also shows the GOP that business as usual isn't in the cards, and they can expect more insurgent campaigns. Maybe the insurgents won't win, but neither will the GOP. Is that cutting off the nose to spite the face? Sure. But the answer there is for the GOP to pay attention.

60 If 'your' local GOP organization doesn't want your time, find another local GOP organization that wants it, and loudly let them know why you're volunteering with them - the message will go up the ladder, especially when the time comes to pound pavement.  There's not just one group you can volunteer for in any given area - for instance, in the Denver area, you can go to any number of counties, you can go to any number of organizations within that county, you can volunteer for any number of candidates.

You're taking one House race as the gold standard that the GOP isn't paying attention to what's going on.  There are going to be stupid pockets here and there, definitely - but those stupid pockets aren't going to get cleaned out unless someone's willing to do it.  You can sit outside and complain all you want, but unless you are willing to actually go in and do the legwork to help clean house, there's no reason for the party to do anything about it.  And in effect, that means handing the party over to the RINOs.  They're not taking it in that direction, the conservatives are walking away and leaving nothing else there.

61 And re the tea parties - if those don't turn into people actually showing up at the primaries and voting in conservative candidates, it's not going to matter a single bit how many teabags you mailed to your congressperson.

62 if those don't turn into people actually showing up at the primaries and voting in conservative candidates,

See, that was the whole fucking point of this whole thread.

They didn't have a primary. I'm not sure how to make that any more clear.
They're shoving this Rino down their throat and calling conservatives in NY unhelpful and accusing them of trying to elect the Democrat because they don't want the leftist in (R) clothing.

That's the whole point, the conservatives are trying to vote for the fucking conservative candidate and the GOP establishment is supporting the Rino and going after the conservatives.

Now do you understand why this pissed me off so much?

The conservatives are showing they're going to vote for a conservative while the the GOP establishment wouldn't give them a primary because they knew the fucking proles would not vote the right way.

That's the whole fucking point.

I have to retract on Ace, he is saying "we" can lose this election because it's only one year, there's another one next year. So he hasn't changed his position, he still appears to favor voting in Rinos.

I'm not a Republican, I'm a conservative/libertarian. The GOP isn't really "we" as far as I'm concerned.
I don't vote for the Conservative Party because they don't have many candidates, I don't vote for the Libertarian Party because they're sane until they're not.

I won't vote GOP if they're just a little less leftist than the Dems and just want to use the gov't to push their agenda at me.

My goal is for the gov't to leave me alone, not have control over more of my life than keeping me from stealing from or hurting other people.

63 I understand that you're taking one district's election and using it to paint the entire national GOP. 

Quit bitching about what the GOP is providing you if you're not willing to do something about it.  You sound like a welfare mom who's pissed off that her checks aren't bigger, despite the fact that she doesn't pay a dime into the system.

64 Exactly, it's all my fault.

I thought we had established that way up thread.

And I'm with you, using what the GOP does against them is totally unfair.

I'll just shut up, send in my money and vote for them.

65 Alice: my wife and I have taken your words to heart about doing something. We canceled our membership in the RNC and gave what we owed the RNC for the year to Hoffman.


Meanwhile, Dana Loesch has a new site up about the NY race.

66 eddie, are you going to be complaining in 2010 and 2012 about what the GOP has handed you for a candidate?  Do you think the GOP is going to listen to people who walk away from the party, who sit out of elections?  And do you think the tea party movement is really strong enough to bring enough candidates at the state and national levels, outside of the Republican party, to make a significant change?  The mechanism is already in place to bring the GOP back to conservatism, by getting involved on a large scale, but instead of getting involved and bringing the party back to its roots, people are walking away and blaming it on the RINOs who remain in the party. 

The GOP has *no* motivation to return to conservatism if the only people remaining in the party are RINOs.  And the tea party movement is not in a place to start a national third party movement.  Look at what's happened with every third party movement over the past several decades, and tell me how this is different - especially considering that the tea party movement doesn't share much of a common bond other than being pissed off.  It's not sustainable.

67 No, I won't sit out. I will still vote, especially in a state like MO, where every election is razor thin. And I will still vote for the Republican candidate. And I will still give time/whatever to individual candidates. BUT, I refuse to be taken for granted anymore. I was a party loyalist. But they don't seem willing to return that loyalty to the people who are their backbone.

And, yeah, I'll support a more squishy candidate in the right circumstances (Ace's example of a Republican in MA comes to mind), but for the party leaders to push someone, and fund her, so counter to their assumed core beliefs, save her "electability", is odd, especially when this race is winnable for a more conservative person.

And maybe the Tea Party types aren't sustainable. But they do seem to be the only ones who have passion in this deal. And they have been more capable and successful at mobilizing attention and opposition than anything the RNC could do. And for the RNC to essentially say, "thanks. Now go sit in the corner" is a bit much.

Maybe my gesture is empty and futile. But it's all I can do at this point to express to the apparatchiks in Steeleville how I feel.

68 As an addendum:

I will probably not sit out in 2012, unless Luap Nor gets the nod. Then I'll just drink myself silly.

 But I really want to see the candidates realize that running as a conservative, and not as a RINO, can be successful.

69 STOP FIGHTING!!!  YOU'RE TEARING THIS FAMILY APART!!!

70 Look at this long-term, and think about how the GOP got into its current position and how it's going to change over the next ten years.

The reason Dede Scozzafava is in the position she's in is because she's chummy with people who have provided long-term support to the GOP.  Ten years ago, those people were providing support to the GOP.  Ten years from now, those people will still be providing support to the GOP. 

Ten years from now, will you still be giving every single political dime you have to Doug Hoffman?  Will you be flying out to New York every weekend to pound pavement for him? 

Yes, the situation in NY23 sucks, I totally agree.  But it's one election and it doesn't change the fact that the GOP there is broken and needs to be fixed.  Walking out on the GOP - instead of flooding it with conservatives to the point where conservatives can't be ignored anymore - leaves nothing but squishy Republicans in power, and that gets us candidates where we have to hold our noses and vote for someone who doesn't really stand for what we believe in, or leaves us stuck with someone wants to turn our country into the USSR because we couldn't bring ourselves to vote for someone who wasn't quite as bad as that.  And in a worst case, we end up with a president who thinks that since he got 52% of the vote because people didn't bother turning out to narrow that margin, that he has a fucking mandate.

This problem is something that was a long time in creating, it's not going to be fixed overnight.  There's enough churn in the Republican party right now, though, and enough recognition that the grassroots movement needs to be encouraged and welcomed rather than pushed out, that conservatives can take back the party if we want to.  Yeah, it's not recognized everywhere nationwide yet - in the places where it is being recognized, show off just what can be done when conservatives are active in the party.  Problem is, too many people are mistaking being pissed off for being productive.  Yeah, we feel better after we scream a bunch of fuck yous, but that still doesn't give us viable conservative candidates, and that doesn't put us in a position to support those viable conservative candidates in an organized way on a national platform.

71 Oh so since our political betters have been out in front they're better than us? They get to decide?
Well, I've been supporting Republicans for a long fucking time too.

See, there's the difference between you and me, I don't like elitist pricks.

72 I'll repeat, it's their job to get me to vote for them, it's not my job to vote for them.

It's trite, but in America our politicians work for us, not the other fucking way around.

The Dems never seemed to care about that, the GOP forgot it.

73 It's not a matter of better or worse, it's who does the work, and who is obviously committed to doing the work, that gets to make the choices.  Keeping the goodwill of someone who's repeatedly shown a willingness to pound pavement and make phone calls and raise money and actually show up and vote is a hell of a lot more important than trying to earn the goodwill of someone that does none of those.

You're expecting a fidelity from the party that you're not willing to live up to yourself - if a conservative candidate won a primary in the GOP and the GOP refused to back them, refused to supply volunteers and funding, you'd be furious.  And you're expecting other people to do the work for you - if you want the GOP to change, get involved and do something about it, instead of sitting around expecting them to change things for you.  Expecting others to do the work for you, to court you and bend to your will when you aren't willing to do the work, flies in the face of everything that conservatism stands for.  It runs counter to the ideals of capitalism.  And it's sure as hell not something I'd expect from someone who thinks of himself as a libertarian.

74 You are exactly right, I'm not giving fidelity to a party, I give my fidelity to my values.

I'll repeat this, it's their job to get me to vote for them not my job to vote for them. It's really that simple.

And you just told me I should vote how my political betters tell me.
I understand you don't like that interpretation, but that's how I see it.
The people in NY are saying, "We want to vote for this guy" and they're saying "Shut up and vote for this Rino."

They're not just ignoring their constituents, they're telling them to shut the fuck up.

I sincerely don't see how you can accept that.

We're talking about the direction the party is going.

You want it to go to Rinos, you will claim they're "electable".

Not just "no" but "Hell no".

The\ GOP lost two elections because they became the Rino party. They didn't just lose conservatives like me, they lost the average American who doesn't pay any attention until late October and all they see are the GOP and Dems arguing over how much power the gov't gets, a lot or a real lot.

The GOP won when they were conservative. From 1994-2000 they were seen as conservatives.
Then, they became the party of Rinos. Bush pushing his "compassionate conservatism" and John Fucking McCain attacking me and sponsoring bills that directly attack my values.
Then, in 2006 with Bush not vetoing any spending bill the GOP could come up with the middle got fed up.
If you're going to elect a Dem, he might as well have a (D) in front of his name. Elections are won and lost in the middle. The Dems have the middle for spending, the GOP does for not spending and for kicking ass.


If the GOP wants to start winning election they have to go back to being conservative. The tea parties aren't full of people like me, they're full of people. It looks a lot like going to Disney or Wal Mart or something.
These people want conservatives, not Rinos who are going to vote for the same shit they're protesting.

I sincerely don't see why that last sentence is so controversial.

75 Well, it looks as though even Kos is starting to mock Dede.

76 If 'these people' want conservatives, they have to be willing to do the work to get them in office.  Seriously, explain to me how sitting back and expecting a political party to do what you think it should do for you without you offering anything in return is different than a welfare mom sitting on a couch complaining that she can't buy cigarettes and beer with her food stamps.

The people who do the legwork are the people who end up making the decisions.  If their principles don't match yours, then you need to be doing the legwork to make sure your principles prevail.  And if you want a conservative GOP, you have to be willing to do the work not just at the general election, but all the work leading up to the general election to make sure there's a conservative candidate in each and every slot.  And yes, sometimes that means putting up and shutting up because even though you busted your ass for a conservative candidate, more people in your area busted their asses more for a squishy candidate, but you know that if you work harder next time, not only will your candidate have a chance to prevail in the primaries, but he'll have the backing of the squishy Republicans because you had their back a few years before.  On average, the GOP isn't going to ignore a large bloc of voters that show up and work hard and raise money for conservative candidates over a period of more than a few months.  You'll have your occasional sick pockets, the holdouts, but overall the GOP knows it can't afford to ignore the people who do the work and raise the money.

This isn't a short-term thing.  We let the GOP get soft when Bush was nominated, and instead of shoring up conservatism within the GOP during the eight years he was in office, by making sure that viable conservative candidates were supported in every race at every level, we let things slide.  It's going to take more than a few months of demonstrations to fix things.

77 and the hits keep coming

78

It's the elites:

H/T Big Government (Publius):

Joseph [] also took a shot at Clinton County Chairman and Assemblywoman Janet Duprey, who threw the nomination to Scozzafava despite the fact that the majority of the Clinton County committee members who attended a candidate forum voted for the ideologically conservative Paul Maroun, and not for the ideologically liberal Scozzafava.

This is just an example. How many years do you work through this crap, until you just say fuck it, and leave?

Sometimes Alice, it's too damn broken to fix.

79 You're using one election and one straw poll as an excuse to walk away from the entire GOP.  You're willing to throw away the entire GOP, conservatives included, when what needs to be done is looking at what has to happen to get rid of Duprey and her ilk.  Find the RINOs, find the squishes, toss 'em out.  

80

The GOP has *no* motivation to return to conservatism if the only people remaining in the party are RINOs.  And the tea party movement is not in a place to start a national third party movement.  Look at what's happened with every third party movement over the past several decades, and tell me how this is different - especially considering that the tea party movement doesn't share much of a common bond other than being pissed off.  It's not sustainable.

Wow. I find myself disagreeing with every frickin' sentence and thought there. This is just fail on so many levels.

1. The GOP has no motivation ...how about fucking winning elections? Being relevant to the base? Something like that?

2. The tea party movement ...who's to say they're not being forced to move to that place, as illustrated by us "whiners"? To pun: why is your reading of the tea leaves of where that's going any better than, say mine Veeshir's?

3. Look at what's happened ...Yeah. Let's try that, shall we? Election of 1992 caused the electoral loss of an incumbent president who'd just won a war; and it wasn't until the Contract W/America forced the GOP to listen to their fucking base that they found *surprise* there were a LOT of "conservatives" who were NOT party members.

4. with every third party movement ...jeezus: the GOP WAS a frackin' "third party movement. We were BORN out of the Whig failure. History matters. That matters and is relevant.

5. tell me how this is different ...doesn't share much of a common bond: our bond is our traditional values!: which is the deepest bond there fuckin' is. We may disagree on some of the details, sure, but I'd bet a twenty that all would basically agree on the concept that America is the last best hope for mankind (in stark contrast with the current administration and the Left's core value).

Reagan tapped into ...illustrated the electoral template ...the commonality of traditional values written into the Declaration and the Constitution ...and how those values were NOT!NOT!NOT! bounded by Party lines.

This argument - this battle - has been going on intraparty since the Goldwater candidacy of the 1964 election wrested control of the party from the Rockefeller country club fucking elitist rat-bastards which culminated in the Reagan presidency. History, Alice, history.

The only REAL question is: is this too broken to fix?

Bottom up? Or top down?

Veeshir's point IS the point.

81

You're using one election and one straw poll as an excuse to walk away from the entire GOP.  You're willing to throw away the entire GOP, conservatives included, when what needs to be done is looking at what has to happen to get rid of Duprey and her ilk.  Find the RINOs, find the squishes, toss 'em out.  

This makes less sense than the last.

1. One election ...I'm looking at every election since Reagan. But this whole thread morphed into what it's become FROM NY23, and how it richly illustrates the issues.

2. one straw poll ...that was a LOCAL PARY MEETING that was over-ridden, not a "straw poll": you might want to google the definition of straw poll.

3. you're willing ...I'm "willing" to fire every one of the incumbent members of the House and the Senate and the state legislatures to rid this nation of the greedy avaricious power-elites who have brought us this mess.

4. conservatives included ...hardly, when I think, as Reagan illustrated, that conservatives are the vast majority of the American public, voting and non-voting. Oh, they may not be able to articulate it, due to the depradations of the Leftist Academy of the past forty years ...but they feel it in their bones. And if I'm wrong: We're So Fucked.

5. What needs to be done ...Alice? I totally agree with that. OUR disagreement is on the method of getting that done. You say toMAto, I say toMAHto.

6. Find the RINO's ...spelled E-L-I-T-I-S-T-S. We don't have to "find them" ...we've been sending them to DC and the state legislatures for years: we know who they are.

7. toss 'em out ...Alice for President. (Or committee chair, or whatever-in-hell.) Yes. Just yes.

Fire.Them.All.

82 Funny, I keep hearing that standing on principle is more important than winning elections, to the point where people would rather sit out than keep someone like Obama out of office.  What do you think the RINOs think they're doing?  They think that their principles are the right way to go, they have no investment in conservatism and will have no investment in conservatism until they're forced to because the conservatives outnumber the squishes in GOP leadership.

I don't see the Tea Party movement presenting a third party candidate in very many of the 2010 elections, do you?  The anger's going to blow over before this gels into a sustainable movement - I'm hoping you don't have yourself fooled that the 2010 elections can be ignored and in 2012 the Tea Party movement is suddenly going to have enough candidates at the state and national level to sweep things.  At best, they'll grab a few seats and hand most of the elections, including the presidency, over to the Democrats.  You want history?  Look at Perot.

On the other hand, it's not too late to get a large number of conservatives mobilized within the GOP and start presenting conservative candidates that the squishes will be forced to back.

83 On the other hand, it's not too late to get a large number of conservatives mobilized within the GOP and start presenting conservative candidates that the squishes will be forced to back.
You still don't get it Alice.

That's what is happening in NY and the GOP leadership is pushing back.

That's why I'm pissed off at this. The conservatives are mobilized and the GOP leadership is telling them to shut up and vote for the Rino.

They're trying to get a conservative elected in a GOP district, the GOP leadership is trying to get a leftist with an (R) elected.

See?

84

Alice? - I think the lesson of Reagan (and the Contract w/America) is that we [traditionalists] win elections when we "stand" on principles ...clearly and forthrightly stand on broad Constitutional principles. Because the We the People - regardless of the paucity of our education or inherent intelligence - innately understand and agree on those values.

...versus the political power-elites (only some of 'em called RINO's) whom care only for their own power and self-enrichment (the latter of which they do very poorly and wastefully). And so, whom should all be ...voted ...from office. And penalized. As a warning.

I'm obviously not wedded to a party, but I am wedded to an idea ...of America. And a party - any party - isn't the end, it's merely the tool to that end. IF in this case the GOP can be fixed, fine. I don't necessarily disagree with that.

But I'm adament that the "real 'solution'" right now is to cleanse Congress and the state legislatures of the greedy rat-bastards whose only real purpose has been and continues to be self-enrichment at the public trough by everything from gaming the system to outright theft, and the good of the country be damned ...and to try and put a lid on it so it won't happen again.

We owe it to our progeny ...we received a great gift from the founders, and the only way to repay that is insure it gets passed on. I believe that - in the secular sense - America is the last best hope for Man. And we can do better.

 

85 No, I get it, Veeshir.  What I don't get is what happened in a supposedly conservative district that put the sort of people in power that would support a candidate like Scozzafava. And why the people of NY23 aren't actively working to move them out of power, if they really don't want them there.  I can't imagine that this behavior came as a surprise to anyone who was active in NY23, so why weren't the conservatives pushing a year ago for a shift of power by showing up and fundraising and pounding pavement? 

Ten years from now, are you still going to be sending money to Hoffman?  NY23 has to stand on its own at some point.  And your local conservative candidates deserve your support. 

So you sweep them all out, assuming you can actually succeed in sweeping them all out and not just assuring a Democratic victory because the conservative side of the aisle has fractured - who's going to be there?  The Tea Party doesn't have conservative candidates who are going to be willing to give up GOP support, to replace all the people who are swept out, and I think it's safe to assume that if it breaks down to a Tea Party candidate getting even 30% of the vote, then at least 40% will go Democrat.  I'd almost be willing to let that happen, if it were merely a matter of four more years of crappy leadership and a broken economy.  But it extends so much further than that - Sotomayor is going to be on the bench for I'm guessing at least 20 years, if healthcare gets nationalized we'll have as much luck getting rid of it as Social Security, and a precedent is being set for government control of free market through salary caps.  And Obama feels he has a mandate to do all of this, because we not only gave him the election, we gave him 52%.

86 It's NY.

The NY GOP is the same as the NY Dems, they spend all their time figuring out what to steal.
Albany is very corrupt, if you work for the GOP you have to vote GOP, ditto Dems. I have a friend who had a Cuomo for Gov sign in her window in 1995, she got a really good job for a Republican so she had to start voting Republican. It made me laugh but it made me laugh. I thought it was a secret ballot, how did they know who you voted for?

I used to watch Albany's politics and it was screwy. They would openly negotiate the budget bargaining the most scummy things and the media treated it as normal. The budgets have been late for probably 20 years in a row even with all the scummy chicanery.

They both ignore the people really badly. It's not as bad as Mass, but close.

I'm not sending money, I'm just pissed off at what the GOP is doing there. I'm voicing my displeasure to the national party so they'll know I want conservative candidates.

That's what the hell you've been telling me to do and yet, you're giving me a hard time for doing it and defending the fucking cocksuckers who rammed a leftist with an (R) against even the vote of the very small, hand-picked body they allowed to vote on it!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I really don't understand your deal. You've spent half the thread telling me to shut up and the other half telling me to agitate for conservative candidates.

87 Via Hot Air, this is the hill they're dying on.


As Allah quotes Dave Weigel who comments on her choice of venues
"Little-known fact: There are lots of campaign workers, and signs, in such offices, ready to be deployed.”

88 So how evil am I for laughing at the still on that video?

It just feels cruel to be laughing because it's so darn pathetic.
But very funny.

89

You really had to know a bit of the background (she already refused Hoffman's offer to debate) and had to have watched the whole thing to get the full ROTFLMAO effect though.

...now you know why the local conservatives wanted to run Paul Maroun.

...although even with him, you have to phonetically pronounce his name just so (and pray "just so" isn't pronounced more-on *cough*).

Heh.

90 I'm giving you a hard time because you want conservative candidates but you're not willing to do the legwork and you expect the GOP to back you when you refuse to back them.

Let me give you a couple of scenarios here.

One - you and your friends bust your collective asses each and every day down at the GOP headquarters, you do the fundraising, you pound the pavement, you give up your evenings and weekends for YEARS to get a conservative message out and to get conservative candidates on the ballot.  One year, people suddenly decide that they don't like your conservative message, they don't like your candidate, and they start flooding your district with out-of-state money, backing a squish candidate, expecting you to cave because you don't hold the same principles as they do, and they are absolutely and totally convinced they're right because, by God, Bush was in office for eight years and if we held the office for eight years with a squish like that, then we should be able to take the White House again with it!

Two - your local Democratic party puts a squishy Dem on the ballot. She's sorta pro-life, she's in favor of lower taxes, she's pro-gun rights, she's anti-union.  It makes you wonder what the hell she's doing with a D by her name.  People nationwide freak out, they walked out on the Democratic party because they felt that it wasn't left enough, and now they've just had enough!  They start flooding the district with money to put Cynthia McKinney in office. 

How are either of these scenarios different from what's going on, other than the point of view?

91

One - you and your friends bust your collective asses each and every day down at the GOP headquarters, you do the fundraising, you pound the pavement, you give up your evenings and weekends for YEARS to get a conservative message out and to get conservative candidates on the ballot. And then your friends and co-workers on the committee finally get to choose a local conservative you all know will do well for the party and the district, and the chairperson overrules your choice, telling you that the Party Bosses have decided otherwise, because they think they know better and they're worried about  people suddenly decide that they don't like your conservative message, they don't like your candidate, and they start flooding your district with out-of-state money, backing a squish candidate, expecting you to cave because you don't hold the same principles as they do, and they are absolutely and totally convinced they're right because, by God, Bush was in office for eight years and if we held the office for eight years with a squish like that, then we should be able to take the White House again with it!

I see you left out the important part, so I fixed it for you.

92 ..."important" because that's what actually, you know, happenned.

93 So what you're saying is that the eleven county chairmen that selected Scozzafava aren't the ones who put in their time and effort, that they're solely there due to the good old boy network and that they weren't elected to those positions by other people who also put their time and sweat into the party.

You're also saying that the fact that Scozzafava had received the backing of several of the other candidates is irrelevant.  Including the pledge given by Hoffman to support her candidacy, reported in that oh-so-liberal Wall Street Journal.  The GOP there proceeded in good faith that they had a candidate that had wide backing.  If Hoffman didn't know, as he claims, that Scozzafava was not a conservative, how aware does that make him of local issues and the other local candidates?  I guarantee you that every candidate here knows exactly how every other candidate stands on every major issue and could rattle off the differences in a heartbeat.  A squish would stick out like a sore thumb.

94

Yeah ...pretty much what I'm saying:

TCO Report NY23

The nomination of Scozzafava was orchestrated by two powerful liberal members of the local Republican Party organization, and was aided and abetted by several politically inexperienced local county leaders who failed to grasp the tactical significance of shunning the Conservative Party and did not fully understand the details of their nominee’s record, or her potential vulnerabilities. On July 22nd, the Republican Party nominated Scozzafava, an Assemblywoman whose liberal views on many issues do not reflect the views of the majority of the district’s Republicans. This nomination was tainted by a breach of trust carried out by a key party insider, liberal Republican Assemblywoman Janet Duprey, who also serves as the chairman of the Clinton County Republican Committee.

...All five of the county chairmen interviewed for this article consider this "openness" to be a signal accomplishment, though several expressed the opinion that despite the "openness", the outcome did not reflect the will of the majority of the Republicans in the district.

More backgrounders here:

Republican Adds His Name to List of Candidates to Replace McHugh

St. Lawrence County Republitarian

Scozzafava is GOP's selection

...but dammit, I never did find the original article I read that convinced me this was a farce. I'll give you that.

Oh. And I'll remind you the WSJ was solidly  for the immigration reform act of a couple of years back btw; I pretty much take a lot they say with a grain of salt.

95

Alice - really take the time to read through that report ...it's pretty damning.

But for anyone still following the thread, here:

When asked for specific details of the Clinton County committee member vote in an exclusive interview with The TCOT Report, Duprey stated that she ripped up the results after the July 16th Plattsburgh candidate forum where the vote was taken, and couldn’t recall specific breakdowns between Maroun, Scozzafava and Doheny. When further asked for the names of the Clinton County attendees of the Plattsburgh candidate forum who had supported Scozzafava, she refused to do so.

The consensus of support for Maroun was communicated directly to Chairman Duprey by numerous participants. The language was strong and clear—Clinton County Republicans were behind Paul Maroun. But when Duprey arrived at the decisive meeting of county chairmen held in Potsdam the next week, she ignored the wishes of her fellow Clinton County Republicans and cast the deciding vote of the second ballot in favor of Scozzafava, her friend and colleague in the Assembly.

Duprey’s conduct was a slap in the face at the concepts of transparency and openness that many of the other county chairmen had tried to institute in a deliberative process to select the nominee. And it fueled the anger of many members of the Tea Party Movement in the area, who are now backing the Conservative candidate, Doug Hoffman, who was one of nine candidates, including Scozzafava and Maroun, who had sought the nomination and participated in the candidate selection process.

The lack of transparency in this process, the “insider’s back room dealing” that had the nomination wired for Scozzafava against the consensus will of the rank and file Republicans of the district, lead to the pending electoral disaster in which the Democrat, Bill Owens, an attorney from Plattsburgh, is now poised to defeat both the Republican Scozzafava, and the Conservative nominee, Doug Hoffman.

96 That 'report' is assuming that the will of one county represents the will of all the counties in the district.  TCOT has their own agenda in promoting this.  If there's a problem in the district, it can be solved within the New York GOP. 

You still haven't addressed how freaking WRONG it is for people outside the district to be trying to influence this race.  The fact that a blogger from halfway across the country thinks the New York GOP owes her an answer about their candidates and threatens to take over their election if she doesn't get what she wants is horrifying.  If this were happening to a squishy Democrat, with big money and big voices coming in from all over the country to promote an ultra-liberal candidate, we'd be screaming about letting locals decide their local issues. 

97 Sheesh.

98 So the question now is:
Do we comment just to get the comment count over 100?

99 Shhhhh. Someone might suspect!

100 #100:  You all are not as far apart in your thinking as you might feel, from an outsider's perspective anyway.

101

Just for Alice:

http://xkcd.com/180/

102 That's the cartoon about someone on the internet being wrong, isn't it?!

103

No. Click it. Its appropriate. You'll laugh.

 

...well, hell: I laughed. And an hour later I'm still scrolling through the damn things. Cartoons for total dork nerds. Who knew.

104 I really wish that everyone who ever threatened to move to Canada would just go ahead and do it.  Maybe we can deport them on principle.

105

Not that anyone will notice ...but I'm all about fairness: Dan Riehl making some of Alice's points ...

Scozzafava Candidacy: Not the Fault of DC GOP

...I don't necessarily agree with the whole thing, mind you. Heh.