1 Well, that was certainly cleansing!

2 Shirlena?

3 When did being religious become a litmus test for being conservative?  I never quite got that. 

...and this?

I believe in the unquestionable, beautiful, unfuckingrivaled power of capitalism.

Fuck yeah!

4 Seriously, if they can't figure out fiscally conservative government, there won't be anything left of the social conservative part to save.  I got more than a little tired of "compassionate conservatism" which turned into gov't giveaways and set up the "spread the wealth around" crapfest we've got now.

5 I have this image of a large, angry light green girl with pretty, flowery tattoos.  EMBER SMASH!!!!

6 I wonder how the She-Hulk transformation would effect tattoos.  Would they get all warped and gross looking when I turn back into normal Ember?

7 I am vaguely familiar with how you feel, yes.

8 I wonder how the She-Hulk transformation would effect tattoos.  Would they get all warped and gross looking when I turn back into normal Ember?

I dunno, but your corset would prolly be ripped to shreds.

9 Believing in the government getting the hell out of the way leads to a lot of self appointed conservatives to a lot of bullshit ember.  I had to qualify a LOT of my posts (and yes I was the plurality poster at my old site, though not by much) because I too am an atheist, who believes in gay marriage "rights": (actually more like just allowing Marriage contracts through private contracts, and not automatic through the states) and also Birth control.  I DO think Abortion is murder, but I'm close to it, so I know my opinion is tilted) that is why I said "abortion should be safe, legal, rare, and humiliating.

But the "pragmatists." can say "I'm pragmatic" without ever defining their position.

(insert eddie rant here)

FUCK THEM with A BAGETTE IN THE LOUVE WHILE LOOKING AT VENUS ON SEAFOAM!!!  or something like that.

You don't have to agree with ALL things conservative to be conservative, you simply have to be. . .

Well,

Conservative.

10 I'm pretty much the same: firmly non-religious (no spiritual beliefs at all), and totally neutral about gay rights. As a result I have been told (on two different occasions) that I literally "cannot be a Conservative" - like I'd failed some kind of definitive entrance exam or something, and it was illegal for me to say I am a 'Con.

<i>FUCK THEM with A BAGETTE IN THE LOUVE</i> by Douglas above - excellent imagery!

11 Dude! Im Christian your OK I'm OK Were American  we want to keep America
OK?

12

the best thing the GOP could do would be to remove the unofficial religious litmus test

one could argue that a true conservative (also known as a classical liberal) would recognize people are free to believe or not believe whatever they choose

one could argue that a true conservative believes government has no business legislating moral questions

 

_{oh and if we nominate Huckabee we're doomed}

13 I believe, first and foremost, in individual freedom and personal liberty.  Meaning that I'll fight and die for your right to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't interfere with my rights.
The "religious" right needs to have that little teeny weenie part of the bible branded onto their left ass cheek:  "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

I grew up Southern Baptist and it's that judgmental bullshit that pretty much guaranteed I'll never step foot in another church again, weddings and funerals notwithstanding.

14 Why so serious?

15 Well said.

Do you have a cigarette holder? I would love to see a video presentation of this speech with you puffing from said device in between awesomeness moments.

16

Do you have a cigarette holder? I would love to see a video presentation of this speech with you puffing from said device in between awesomeness moments.

Of course I have a cigarette holder.  It's a great prop for pictures.  Heh.

17 Ember, I think that does, officially, qualify as a rant. It was definitely more anger than frustration. I also agree you're probably not going to convert any social-cons with your post, and I suspect you're preaching to the mostly converted here, as you said. However, I don't believe all social-cons think you're not a conservative. I suspect there are a lot of people who believe in God and think marriage should be between a man and a woman who think you're a conservative. I think the intolerant people in the conservative movement, like the person who said 'you are no better than Obama', are in the minority, not you.

18

You're totally right, Dr. Spank, and I don't mean to give the impression that I think these crazy, judgemental social cons are in any way a majority.

I think the issue is, much like a jackass with a racial sign at a Tea Party, people remember the one bad thing, not the ten thousand good ones.  Judgemental pricks like that are just turning all kinds of people off from the party, and the worst part about it is they're happy about it!  "Hey, look, Bobby Joe, we just drove off another one of them fake conservatives!  Soon, there'll only be ten of us real conservatives left!  Woo-fuckin'-hooooo!"

Or, something like that.

19 As a devout Agnostic, I wonder if I pass the test?  Hehehe.

20 how does a conservative who believes in homosexual rights (I'm guessing you mean as pertains to the 14th amendment) feel about those protections inherent in the free association clause of the 1st amendment? this question was at the heart of past lawsuits against the Boy Scouts of America.

21 and some guys use cigarette holders

22

how does a conservative who believes in homosexual rights (I'm guessing you mean as pertains to the 14th amendment) feel about those protections inherent in the free association clause of the 1st amendment? this question was at the heart of past lawsuits against the Boy Scouts of America.

Interesting question.  What we're talking about is the difference between the government and an individual group, though.  I think if marriage licenses are going to be given out by the government, they should cover all parties.  I don't think an individual organization has to accept it.  For example, if a gay couple got a marriage license from, oh, let's say Vegas, I wouldn't say that the Catholic Church had to perform the wedding.  In much the same way, any other individual organization can and should have the right to accept whom they want.

People have the ability to boycot an organization, after all, so if you disagree with the teachings or the practices of such a group, you can simply not participate, or protest and make your voice heard.  You don't have the ability to say, "Well, the government isn't giving me the equal protections of other people," and go elsewhere for the same things that the government provides, as in the case of a marriage license. 

I don't think this means that if we let gays get married that people are going to be able to marry dogs, or marry multiple people.  It's still monogomous, and the law that one person can only marry one person (at a time, anyway) would still apply.  I further find it hard to use the "sanctity of marriage" argument, considering how many American marriages end in divorce.

23

First of all I am not religiuos. If you think this is a concern toll post check my moniker @ other moron sites.

My questions is, and has been for a long time, how do these threads look to our religiuos allies. For every time Ember ( or Alex or hell me) is offended by some southern baptist and goes off on a rant (I'm not saying we do it often) and we have 10 or 20 comments piling on, how does that look to them?

I mean we always focus on how they try to marginalize us, but sometimes I wonder if we aren't marganalizing them.

24 FUCK I can't even spell TROLL there goes my whole point.

25 . For every time Ember ( or Alex or hell me) is offended by some southern baptist and goes off on a rant (I'm not saying we do it often) and we have 10 or 20 comments piling on, how does that look to them?

You know what, I am going to go off on you about this.  I go to great pains to state that I do not believe that religious opposition to homosexuality or gay marriage is per se bigotry.  I go to great pains to note that I was raised in the Evangelical community and thus any such attacks are attacks on my parents.  I am very conscious of the fact that some of our co-bloggers are deeply religious people.  For that matter, I consider myself to be a person of deep faith. 

But you know what?  What Ember says is a completely and utterly and fair  point.  When people feel free to tell me that I am going to hell, meaning that my soul will perish in eternal damnation, and that I am not truly conservative because of one portion of my life, then I do. not. give. a. fuck. about how they are going to take it.  I've given up on trying to find any type of middle ground.  Those who act that way, and by the by it is NOT the entirety of the "Religious Right", are not capable of persuasion. 

I have fucking had it with being told to sit down and shut up and let people insult me to my face and smile and say "please sir may I have another".

So.  Yeah.  How's this for a solution - rants like this won't be posted when people stop trying to throw people out of the conservative movement for religious disagreements. 

I am perfectly happy to stand side by side fighting against encroaching socialism with someone who truly believes that I can never receive God's grace due to my sexuality.  The problem is that those people are not willing to stand side by side with me. 

26

To add to what Alex so eloquently said above, I have never, ever said an insulting or demeaning word about any branch of Christianity.  I respect other people's beliefs, and their right to freely worship how they choose. 

Six years ago, I was a dutiful little liberal twenty-something.  I didn't really pay attention or think about it; I knew my mom was a liberal, and that the nasty Rethuglicans hated teh gheys and wanted to start wars and shit, man, and were just generally evil and nasty.  And then, my best friend in the world opened my eyes and taught me how very wrong I was.

That friend is a preacher.  A homosexual.  And one of the staunchest conservatives I know.  I've seen the kind of vile hatred people have spewed at him within his own party; I've had similar hatred spewed at me because of my athiesm, my tattoos, and a few other life choices that aren't the business of anyone but me.  And while I have never said a word in judgement or anger about them, they have about me, and about people I love, adore, and respect.

As I said in the rant - I won't let people like that silence my voice or scare me off of what I believe.  I know plenty of Christians who are kind, beautiful, gentle, and, while they disagree with my beliefs, don't judge me or think less of me because of them.  People who judge me because of them?  They are in the wrong.  And we shouldn't be afraid to say so.

27 Ember, I agree that no one should have a problem with you being an Atheist. I have friends who are both Atheist and Agnostic and we all pretty much agree that we'll find out who's right in the end.

The gay rights part is where we disagree, but perhaps not in the way you might think. I believe that the only people who deserve special rights are the physically and mentally handicapped. The rest of us deserve EQUAL rights. I don't believe someone deserves special rights because they're gay, black, hispanic, asian, female or whatever. I have gay friends and they all agree with me on this point. No one deserves a leg up over anyone else, but we all DO deserve a level playing field, and giving one group special rights over another doesn't do that. Making sure that everyone is treated fairly does.

You might still disagree with me, but know that I respect your opinion.

Kowboy

28

"I believe that the only people who deserve special rights are the physically and mentally handicapped. The rest of us deserve EQUAL rights."

I think that homosexuals should be allowed to marry.  And I don't believe that is a "special right" for them.  A marriage license is a slip of paper given by the government that has implications in taxation, property ownership, etc.  Also, as an atheist, the Biblical definition of marriage is superfluous to the argument.  Marriage is not necessarily a religious institution.  I didn't swear before God to love my husband for the rest of eternity.  (Actually, I quite literally swore in my vows that I would not love my Playstation more than my husband, but that's another story.)  Many people do, and that's a choice of how they have the marriage conducted.

To allow a homosexual couple to be legally recognized as a couple in the same way that a straight couple is in the eyes of the government is not, in my mind, a "special right". 

I respect that you may disagree with that.  And, as long as we can say, "Well, we disagree on that, but let's figure that shit out after we stop Obama and his goons from spending us into oblivion," and prioritize things as necessary, then I'm cool.

29 I intend to quote the paragraph starting "I believe in fiscal conservatism.  I believe in the Constitution. . . " as much as I can (assuming there are no objections). 

I've always had a hard time calling myself conservative because of the issues you(Ember) discussed above.  I know quite a few people who feel the same way, but that may be a symptom of where I live. 
 
I can't help but roll my eyes when some conservative speaker(who I probably like for the most part) starts talking about religion.  I'll agree with them about how the Freedom From Religion Foundation(local org.) are a bunch of douchebags, but that in no way means that I'm worried about my soul being saved.  My feeling, how ever unjustified and unproven, is that some of these people may not mind government involvement in religion, if their religion is the one being promoted.

It's always nice to find others who have a view somewhat similar to what i said above, so know that many of us agree with you.

*If this isn't clear or is written poorly or is insulting to anyone, my excuse is that I've been drinking.*

30 I believe gay couples deserve to be recognized. However, marriage, by definition, is a ceremony performed by an ordained member of the clergy. The same ceremony performed by a civil servant is a civil union, although everyone calls it marriage. Most religions believe that marriage is a union between a man and a woman, and that's fine. But I have no problem with you and your partner going to the courthouse and being joined by a civil servant and calling it whatever you please. Or if you know a member of the clergy who will do it, that's fine too. By law you should have all the same rights guaranteed to a man/woman couple, be they joined by a clergyman or civil servant. That's what I meant by EQUAL rights. Your lifestyle isn't my lifestyle, but I respect your right to live it as you please. It's just a damn shame there's so many people who don't.

31 So, Kowboy, we disagree on semantics.  I can deal with semantics. 

32 Yeah, Ember, I guess that's a good way to put it.

My view, simply put. Everyone deserves the same chance at the same things. Period. Sometimes I'm just a bit too wordy saying it. lol

33   Ember, I'd consider myself to be a "social conservative".  And I LOVE you.  Alex too.  If people like the two of you are barred from the party, can you really call it a "party"?  I don't think so.

34

ATC you can go off on me anytime you like, I have been reading youe comments over at Ace's before there was a ++undead. The fact that your little pissed tells me I probably made my point badly, but look at jones' comment upthread as an example of what I'm saying. He is just as fast to throw out people for having an "unofficial litmus test" as some of them are to throw you out for your bi-sexuality or your love of stompy boots or hatred of clowns or whatever it is they're on about.

The good news is that comment seems to be the only one, so maybe I am worrying needlessly would'nt be the first time. 

Ember same goes for you although I have'nt been reading you as long. Anyone who thinks less of you is probably not doing much thinking.

Now I need to go buy vodka, I have limes and V-8 juice but no vodka that is unacceptable. I should probably be thrown off team moron.

35 Limes and V-8 but no vodka just means that you recently finished your vodka.  The people who get thrown off of Team Moron are the ones who still have the same bottle of vodka they had a year ago.

36 The fact that your little pissed tells me I probably made my point badly,

Or I'm being a little hairtriggery.  Which is possible.  Look, you do have a fair point, heaving people off of My Team because of one or two areas of disagreement is bad, no matter who is doing it. It's just a personal pet peeve of mine that I'm supposed to sit there, smile, let people be rude and not fight back.  This isn't even about my sexuality, it drives me nuts when people feel perfectly free to ask me about if I want kids and why don't I want kids and oh you're in your 40's now so aren't you in a hurry to have a kid.  It's utterly rude but when I respond by asking how much they make or how much they weigh, then I'm the rude one.

So, you know, it's not that you bad your point badly, it's just a hot button thing for me. 

37

Ember, I'd consider myself to be a "social conservative".  And I LOVE you.  Alex too.  If people like the two of you are barred from the party, can you really call it a "party"?  I don't think so.

See, Russ, that's why I really love being a conservative - because, for the most part, we can talk through our differences, find common ground, and fight for the bigger issues, knowing that we can find ways to get around the little stuff later.  It's always just that one jackass giving people a bad name.  I love you too!

38

Ember,

You know I love you, despite the fact you and I don't see eye to eye on this.  This is not because I am not true to my faith.  It is because I am, and I take Jude (and the rest of the book) seriously.  I wouldn't toss you because we don't see eye to on this, because I like the idea that with time, either you can come to change, or change can come to you (as it did me).  I also hate the idea of division on these points allowing those who believe in "equality" as long as they are more equal than the others destroying everything worthwhile that was ever established on these shores.

39

BiW, I hope you know that I would never think you would be one of those people.  You've never been anything but kind when it comes to religion, typical H2 nonsense aside. 

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