1 I'm looking for a chart I saw earlier today.  Basically refuting the concept of "guest workers." that shows that next to none of those who come across the border, every go across it the other way, I can't remember where I saw it, it was a long article, so should have been able to spot it immediately, but I can't find it.

Let the market rule the NATURE of visa's, but that isn't an excuse to ignore the requirement of legal effort on an individuals part to obey the law.

2 http://cbs2.com/local/hit.and.run.2.1817427.html

How many more?

3

I'm just a caveman. I was hunting one day and fell into a crevasse and was frozen; years later your scientists thawed me out and made me a network technician. Your modern world frightens and confuses me, but I do know this: the United States is a sovereign nation with internationally recognized borders, and it is the constitutional duty of the federal government to secure those borders. This is not the case in this foul Year of Our Lord two thousand and ten. Let's solve that crisis first, then worry about 'guest workers' and market solutions.

Boolah boolah.

4 After being called a racist by the left for opposing "immigration reform", I'm now against all immigration. Liberals keep crying about the Earth being overpopulated but basically support open borders. Why should we subsidize other countries inability to take care of their citizens when Gaia is dying?

5 I don't think this is really all that surprising.  Stossel is a libertarian (I don't know if that's "big-L" or not), and I've heard several libertarians argue that any workers should be able to trade their skills or services for whatever wages employers are willing to pay, regardless of the workers' legal status.

I disagree with that stance, but I think that's where he's coming from.

6 I'll hopefully offer a rebuttal tonight.

7 I have a novel idea.  Let's 1) seal our borders--I mean really SEAL them (think of all the jobs created) so nobody can get in that we don't allow in, 2) deport every illegal we find--people like to ask how we can deport twenty million people and my answer is "one at a time, baby",  3) come down hard--REALLY hard--on businesses that employ them, and 4) deny all social services to non-citizens.  A simple idea that only sounds complicated if you're paying lip service to solving the illegal immigration problem.

8

I can't believe I'm disagreeing with Stossel, but a couple of thoughts:

I basically agree with Jones.  The immigration debate has two components:  control of the borders, and reform of immigration law.  It's disingenuous to argue against cracking down on illegal immigration simply because one believe legal immigration is too restricted.  There are plenty of us who would be happy to open up a dialogue regarding letting more people in legally, but believe it's a moot point, or worse an exercize in futility, to talk about it before we secure our borders as much as possible against those who would bypass our laws.  The phrase "Tall Fences, Wide Gates" has arisen for a reason. 

Secondly, and this ties in closely to my first point, any discussion of immigration reform that talks about market forces HAS to acknowledge that there are two major factors that conspire together to skew the market artificially:  Porous borders and restrictive labor laws (particularly minimum wage).  I've lived in Western states all my life, and I know at least a little about the way illegals have been used, at least over the last 20 years.  Plenty of them work for far less than minimum wage, in pretty miserable conditions -- conditions that are often in violation of labor laws.  The fact that the workers are here illegally means they're far less likely to report or complain about such conditions, because A) the conditions are still better than they are back home, and B) any close attention by authorities is likely to result in their deportation.  It's a lot easier for unscrupulous employers to go that route than hire Americans and have to maintain workplace and wage standards.  As long as we have strict but unenforced immigration laws (The current model), that's the labor market model created by the situation: two different sets of workers, each with a different set of constraints that hinders one group from competing on an even footing with the other, and hinders the other from demanding as much for their services as the one.

I'm willing to bet that if steps were taken to secure the border, so that illegal immigration was reduced to a trickle, and subsequently loosened immigration laws, so that more immigrants were allowed in legally, but had to compete with American workers on an even footing WRT labor conditions, taxes, wages, etc., the equilibrium would be somewhere other than where it is now.

9 Sorry, that last comment is an incomplete thought.  What I mean is, I'm sure that there would still be jobs for which immigrants would out-compete Americans, but I doubt it would be as many, if there weren't illegals to be exploited.

10

national sovereignty trumps the rights of mexicans to swarm over our border and sell their skills, whether those skills be trafficking drugs, cutting off policemen's heads, or selling teenage girls into slavery

 

at least it does when I become the amazing colossal super president

 

 

I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

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