March 02, 2010
It's too late to be surprised
Via the Agitator, we find this story about a UK pub owner going to jail for 6 months for refusing to pay fines forallowing people to smoke in his pub.
First, Radley Balko said he was going to jail for allowing people to smoke.
No, he's going to jail for not paying the fines for allowing people to smoke.
There's a huge difference.
I have to admit, I'm not outraged over this. They allowed the laws to happen, this is just the logical conclusion. In NYS, where they have a similar ban, some bars "rent" ashtrays. You pay for using an ashtray and when the SS comes and demands their squeeze, the bar owner has a stash of "ashtray rental" money for paying them off.
That's the law, NY doesn't really care if you smoke, they just like the extra income from the fines they collect.
It's funny, but in NYC many bars would prefer you smoke pot in them than cigs. If you're smoking pot, only you get in trouble. If you smoke cigs, the bar gets in trouble.
If this gives the British subjects an impetus for reversing the Nannarchy, well that's great.
But they have nobody to blame but themselves for this.
The law is the law. Unless you're a career criminal in Britain, you have to pay the consequences when you break it.
First, Radley Balko said he was going to jail for allowing people to smoke.
No, he's going to jail for not paying the fines for allowing people to smoke.
There's a huge difference.
I have to admit, I'm not outraged over this. They allowed the laws to happen, this is just the logical conclusion. In NYS, where they have a similar ban, some bars "rent" ashtrays. You pay for using an ashtray and when the SS comes and demands their squeeze, the bar owner has a stash of "ashtray rental" money for paying them off.
That's the law, NY doesn't really care if you smoke, they just like the extra income from the fines they collect.
It's funny, but in NYC many bars would prefer you smoke pot in them than cigs. If you're smoking pot, only you get in trouble. If you smoke cigs, the bar gets in trouble.
If this gives the British subjects an impetus for reversing the Nannarchy, well that's great.
But they have nobody to blame but themselves for this.
The law is the law. Unless you're a career criminal in Britain, you have to pay the consequences when you break it.
Posted by: Veeshir at
10:37 AM
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Post contains 233 words, total size 1 kb.
1
Actually Vee, I'm gonna disagree with you here. He refused to pay a fine levied on him for not telling people to put out their cigs. Think about this, the UK wouldn't let him defend himself against an armed thug, but EXPECTS him to prevent others from smoking in his establishment. What do they expect him to do if the customer refuses? He can't use any kind of compulsion to get them to stop. Heck, he'd probably be arrested if he told some yob to put it out and then tried to throw them out when they didn't.
He ought to fight this on the stand that if he cannot be allowed to defend himself (as he's not the police) he can't enforce any other laws they pass either.
He ought to fight this on the stand that if he cannot be allowed to defend himself (as he's not the police) he can't enforce any other laws they pass either.
Posted by: MikeD at March 02, 2010 12:47 PM (FkL60)
2
The worst thing in their society is that for any problems they need to
call the police, they are barred from handling problems themselves. A
law against people smoking is small beans.
He already had a chance to fight it and he lost.
It's his bar so he's responsible for what happens in it.
I assume he's supposed to call the police if evil smokers smoke. (interesting experiment, call the police from two, similar bars equi-distant to the same police station. Have one say someone's smoking, the other say someone's holding it up with guns. See who sees the police first)
I think he did defend himself as you said, with a "The gov't is not my mommy" defense but that article is about useless for finding anything out about his side of the story. You only hear from him once and everybody else is on the other side.
His quote was about freedom, so maybe he was about keeping the gov't out.
But he's going to jail because he's refusing to pay the fine for his "crime".
He pleaded "not guilty" and he was guilty. He admits it. He just claims the law he broke is wrong.
It's too late when the law's the law. You need to stop them before or cancel them, you can't break them.
I hate the guns laws of most states north and north-east of Virginia, I think they're against the spirit and the letter of the Constitution, but....
I don't take my handguns or "high-capacity" magazines or evil guns north though. I agitate for the laws to be changed, I don't break them.
Most of my NY relatives think I'm going to go on a killing spree and are afraid of guns, they're happy with the laws.
Of course, everything they know about guns and gun laws they learned from the NY Times.
Thanks though, I did find a small non-total-fail update to a previous story in responding.
He already had a chance to fight it and he lost.
It's his bar so he's responsible for what happens in it.
I assume he's supposed to call the police if evil smokers smoke. (interesting experiment, call the police from two, similar bars equi-distant to the same police station. Have one say someone's smoking, the other say someone's holding it up with guns. See who sees the police first)
I think he did defend himself as you said, with a "The gov't is not my mommy" defense but that article is about useless for finding anything out about his side of the story. You only hear from him once and everybody else is on the other side.
His quote was about freedom, so maybe he was about keeping the gov't out.
But he's going to jail because he's refusing to pay the fine for his "crime".
He pleaded "not guilty" and he was guilty. He admits it. He just claims the law he broke is wrong.
It's too late when the law's the law. You need to stop them before or cancel them, you can't break them.
I hate the guns laws of most states north and north-east of Virginia, I think they're against the spirit and the letter of the Constitution, but....
I don't take my handguns or "high-capacity" magazines or evil guns north though. I agitate for the laws to be changed, I don't break them.
Most of my NY relatives think I'm going to go on a killing spree and are afraid of guns, they're happy with the laws.
Of course, everything they know about guns and gun laws they learned from the NY Times.
Thanks though, I did find a small non-total-fail update to a previous story in responding.
Posted by: Veeshir at March 02, 2010 01:35 PM (DNnJo)
3
But that's just the problem Vee. He SHOULD have claimed, "I told them to stop but they didn't." At that point, he's done everything the law allows/requires him to do. I'm not saying what he DID was smart or even right. I'm just saying what he should have done.
I'm in favor of the legalization of drugs. But you put me on a jury and have some pothead come to court busted for carrying/using... I'm voting guilty (unless there's a reasonable doubt concerning it). Why? Because right or wrong, it's the law.
In this dude's case, what I'm saying is he should have covered his ass with the law (by saying "hey quit" while winking like a madman) and when the cops call him on it, he tells them, "how did you expect me to enforce the law when you won't let me defend myself."
Or maybe he should call the cops when someone won't stop smoking.
I'm in favor of the legalization of drugs. But you put me on a jury and have some pothead come to court busted for carrying/using... I'm voting guilty (unless there's a reasonable doubt concerning it). Why? Because right or wrong, it's the law.
In this dude's case, what I'm saying is he should have covered his ass with the law (by saying "hey quit" while winking like a madman) and when the cops call him on it, he tells them, "how did you expect me to enforce the law when you won't let me defend myself."
Or maybe he should call the cops when someone won't stop smoking.
Posted by: MikeD at March 02, 2010 02:16 PM (FkL60)
4
I'm with you on that MikeD, I'm not really disagreeing, I just don't think it would have worked. I bet he has to call the cops or he's liable.
Of course, a bar that calls cops on its patrons for smoking isn't going to have many patrons.
But they need to change the law, not break it.
Don't they have any form of democracy over there? I assume town councils are elected not hereditary or appointed by the laird, but I could be wrong.
Of course, a bar that calls cops on its patrons for smoking isn't going to have many patrons.
But they need to change the law, not break it.
Don't they have any form of democracy over there? I assume town councils are elected not hereditary or appointed by the laird, but I could be wrong.
Posted by: Veeshir at March 02, 2010 02:23 PM (DNnJo)
5
Oh, and one thing, if you read the first article, he blatantly, publicly and repeatedly said he would refuse to enforce it.
The article doesn't really explore his side, but I would have to wonder if he was targeted for just that reason.
So I'm thinking he tried the "You can't do this" defense, not the "I tried" defense because he was already on record saying he would refuse to enforce it.
So that's another problem that's immaterial to the law itself, he was targeted for not shutting up and taking it like the prole he is.
The article doesn't really explore his side, but I would have to wonder if he was targeted for just that reason.
So I'm thinking he tried the "You can't do this" defense, not the "I tried" defense because he was already on record saying he would refuse to enforce it.
So that's another problem that's immaterial to the law itself, he was targeted for not shutting up and taking it like the prole he is.
Posted by: Veeshir at March 02, 2010 02:26 PM (DNnJo)
6
"Of course, a bar that calls cops on its patrons for smoking isn't going to have many patrons."
And again, had it been me, I'd totally wait till the dude was almost done with the smoke, tell him to put it out (honest officer, I didn't see him with the cig till he was almost done!) and call the cops. Whether it was out or not. Why? Let them get called out each and every time someone lights up and they'll either quit responding or have to station a cop out there full time. Oh and when old Bobby shows up and is all "What's all this, then?" You swear you can't recall which fellow it was. And that then hits them right in their wallet. Yes, it'd get passed to the taxpayers (what doesn't?) but if they want their dumb law enforced, make them enforce it. As often as possible.
And again, had it been me, I'd totally wait till the dude was almost done with the smoke, tell him to put it out (honest officer, I didn't see him with the cig till he was almost done!) and call the cops. Whether it was out or not. Why? Let them get called out each and every time someone lights up and they'll either quit responding or have to station a cop out there full time. Oh and when old Bobby shows up and is all "What's all this, then?" You swear you can't recall which fellow it was. And that then hits them right in their wallet. Yes, it'd get passed to the taxpayers (what doesn't?) but if they want their dumb law enforced, make them enforce it. As often as possible.
Posted by: MikeD at March 02, 2010 04:49 PM (FkL60)
7
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